Episode 145 - Christine Winebrenner Irick, Soul of Travel and Lotus Sojourns (PodSwap!)
Welcome to a special podswap episode of the Soul of Travel Podcast! Host Esme Benjamin of The Trip That Changed Me podcast interviewed our very own Christine Winebrenner Irick.
Christine is the entrepreneur behind the group travel company, Lotus Sojourns, and the host of The Soul of Travel podcast, which features guests making a positive impact on the tourism industry.
In this episode, Christine shares the story of her first big trip to Asia. Amid a period of rebirth, as her career and marriage were crumbling, Christine took inspiration from Alex Garland's book, The Beach, and set off for Thailand with one good friend and no solid plans. In Christine's own words, what unfolded was a perspective-shifting experience that would "reveal who she would become."
Fast forward to 2023, and Christine was recently named one of the most influential women in travel, an accolade that speaks to her work highlighting how sustainable tourism can support gender equality.
Esme is the current Editor-in-Chief of Full-Time Travel and host of the podcast The Trip That Changed Me, which features transformative travel stories from guests including writer/illustrator Mari Andrew, Top Chef judge Gail Simmons, and more.
In Season Four of The Trip That Changed Me Podcast, Esme interviews many exciting guests in the travel world, including Laurie Woolever (Anthony Bourdain’s former assistant), prolific travel writer Pico Iyer, and Emmy award-winning host Samantha Brown.
Always Traveling… In the Mind
While Christine’s family grew up in a rural Montana community that kept everything they needed within reach, Christine had always experienced the draw to travel. She imagined herself living amongst the furthest reaches of the world. Forget Paris; she wanted to sojourn, and get to know people in their own communities.
Even while moving the cattle from one plot to the other, riding horses, and playing outside well into dusk, Christine experienced a wild and free childhood. She also shares that she grew up on a reservation in Montana, and while she was outside the community, she wished to connect to the indigenous people who were her neighbors, yet there were boundaries between the two communities.
Stepping Into the Travel Industry
Growing up in a heavily touristed destination, Christine would see a transient community become inundated with strangers every summer. She worked at Glacier National Park and the Chamber of Commerce at Yellowstone National Park, eventually following many of her peers out of Montana toward California.
She enrolled in a tourism program and began working in the industry, where mindful travel began to become part of the conversation and began being a part of the tourism industry - on purpose.
Travel to Solve a Quarter-Life Crisis
Christine had bounced from her time in California, to Washington, and back to Montana, finding herself engaged and married and on her way back to Washington right away.
Christine quickly found that her relationship was headed on the wrong path, and decided to end the relationship.
She then answered the call to travel. And for reasons unknown to her, there was only one destination: Thailand.
Crafting Travel Experiences for Women in Transition
Christine followed the thread of travel into the path of entrepreneurship, creating Lotus Sojourns to foster rebirth and renewal – much like the symbol of the lotus – through travel. She hopes to facilitate an awareness of the importance of facing and even leaping into the darkness in order to bloom and come to the light.
Christine wants to create an intentional space for women to move through this change.
When Christine launched her small group travel company for women, it was just before the world of travel came to a halt in 2020.
Christine has persevered, creating intimate, beautiful places of growth in close, safe communities of women in ways that also create positive community-based tourism impacts.
“I’m not leaving this place. And I’m not leaving this version of myself. I feel so alive.”
Soul of Travel Episode 145 At a Glance
In this episode, Esme and Christine discuss:
The powerful draw of travel and the possibilities it creates
Stepping into Thailand for the first time… into an MTV Halloween party
The transformational power of travel
Traveling mindfully and responsibly
Join Christine and Esme now for this soulful conversation.
LOVE these soulful conversations? We rely on listener support to produce our podcast! Make a difference by making a donation on PayPal.
Related UN Sustainable Development Goals
Sustainable Development Goal #3: Ensure healthy lives and promote well-being for all at all ages.
Sustainable Development Goal #4: Ensure inclusive and equitable quality education and promote lifelong learning opportunities for all.
Sustainable Development Goal #5: Achieve gender equality and empower all women and girls.
Sustainable Development Goal #9: Build resilient infrastructure, promote inclusive and sustainable industrialization and foster innovation.
Sustainable Development Goal #10: Reduce inequality within and among countries.
Sustainable Development Goal #16: Promote peaceful and inclusive societies for sustainable development, provide access to justice for all and build effective, accountable and inclusive institutions at all levels.
Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode
Stay up-to-date on The Trip That Changed Me podcast by Full-Time Travel.
About the Soul Of Travel Podcast
Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of people making a positive impact in the tourism industry. In each episode, you’ll hear the stories of women who are industry professionals, seasoned travelers, and community leaders. Our expert guests represent social impact organizations, adventure-based community organizations, travel photography and videography, and entrepreneurs who know that travel is an opportunity for personal awareness and a vehicle for global change.
Join us to become a more educated and intentional traveler as you learn about new destinations, sustainable and regenerative travel, and community-based tourism. Industry professionals and those curious about a career in travel will also find value and purpose in our conversations.
We are thought leaders, action-takers, and heart-centered change-makers who inspire and create community. Join host Christine Winebrenner Irick for these soulful conversations with our global community of travelers exploring the heart, the mind, and the globe.
Subscribe & Review on Apple Podcasts
Are you a Soul of Travel subscriber? Click here to subscribe to Apple Podcasts, so you don’t miss the latest episodes!
Listener reviews help expand our reach and help us rise up the ranks! Rate and review your favorite episodes on Apple Podcasts or your preferred podcast app.
Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor). Esme Benjamin (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing, production, and content writing by Carly Oduardo.
Learn more about Lotus Sojourns
Looking for ways to be a part of the community? Learn more here!
Find Lotus Sojourns on Facebook, or join the Lotus Sojourns Collective, our FB community for like-hearted women.
Follow us on Instagram: @lotussojourns and @souloftravelpodcast
Become a supporter of Soul of Travel!
WE WON A BESSIE AWARD! The Bessie Awards recognize the achievements of women and gender-diverse people making an impact in the travel industry. To view the complete list of 2022’s winners, visit bessieawards.org.
Soul of Travel Episode 145 Transcript
Women’s travel, transformational travel, sustainable travel, women leaders in travel, social entrepreneurship
Christine: Join me, Christine Winebrenner Irick, for soulful conversations with my community of travelers exploring the heart, the mind, and the globe. We might all agree that we are missing travel right now. These conversations highlight what tourism really means for the world. Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of the people making a positive impact in tourism. In each episode, you'll hear the story of industry professionals and seasoned travelers who know travel is more than a vacation. It is an opportunity for personal awareness and it is a vehicle for change. We are thought leaders, action takers, and heart-centered change makers. This is the Soul of Travel.
Hey, soul of Travel listeners, it's pod swap time. Again, I love being able to share these interviews with you from other podcasts that I love. Today I'm sharing my interview on the trip that changed me with host Esme Benjamin. Last week you heard me interview her and here we flip the mic and she's interviewing me. You get to hear the story of one of the trips that had the greatest impact on my life, a six week journey to Thailand. Be sure to check out Es Me's podcast and listen to other great interviews on the trip that changed me. She has recently interviewed two people I love in Travel, Samantha Brown and Pico Ire. I love hearing stories of some of the most notable, inspiring people in the industry and hearing how travel has truly changed them and brought them to where they are today. As season four comes to an end, I'm excited to share with you the most listened to episodes from season 1, 2, 3, and four. I'll join you over the coming weeks for those my season wrap up and a kickoff for season five. For now, enjoy my pod swap conversation with esmi Benjamin.
Esme: This is the trip that changed me, a podcast about trips that transform. I'm ESMI Benjamin, editor of Full-Time Travel, and every other Thursday I'll be sitting down with entrepreneurs, writers, entertainers, and everyday adventurers to discuss a journey that shifted their mindset, ignited a new calling, expanded their heart, or ushered in a new chapter.
My guest today is Christine Winebrenner Irick, the entrepreneur behind the group travel company, Lotus Sojourns and the host of the Soul of Travel podcast, which features guests making a positive impact in the tourism industry. In this episode, Christine shares the story of her first big trip to Asia in the midst of a period of rebirth as her career and marriage were crumbling. As Christine took inspiration from Alex Garland's book the Beach and set Off for Thailand with one good friend and no solid plans. What unfolded was a perspective shifting experience that would in Christine's own words, reveal who she would become. Fast forward to 2023 and Christine was recently named one of the most influential women in travel, an accolade that speaks to her work highlighting how sustainable tourism can support gender equity. Please enjoy Christine Wy Brenner. Eric. Christine,
Esme: Welcome to the trip that changed me. I'm so excited to have you, especially because your trip takes place in my favorite country, Thailand, so I feel like we're going to have a lot to talk about.
Christine: Yeah, excellent. I just learned that about you, so that is very exciting that we get to share,
Esme: But usually I like to dive in by asking people where did your love of travel originate?
Christine: I think that my love of travel originated somewhere even outside of myself. I have always just been really in love with the idea of travel. No one around me ever really traveled, but I think through books and movies and stories and just my imagination, I think I was always traveling just in my mind as a child. I just would imagine all these places. And then as I started reading things like books about adventuring or traveling, I just always was curious about those places. And I grew up in a very rural community in Montana, and so I felt very much like everything was pretty homogenous and similar and I just craved the things that I knew must have been outside of my four walls I guess, and always wanted to travel and I always envisioned myself living with indigenous tribes or people in these very forest remote regions like in Papua New Guinea or the Amazon. I never really wanted to just travel to Paris, but I wanted to just be somewhere that felt so completely different with people who felt very different and just learn to understand who they were and what their culture was. So yeah, I didn't really have any people or places per se, but this just was this thing, this drive that always existed within myself.
Esme: It's from an outsider's perspective to imagine growing up in the American West, which is so mythologized as this place where everyone's just living among this amazing wilderness and it feels like the sort of place where you would just naturally grow up feeling adventurous. But did you feel that that was true or not? So in your community?
Christine: I guess I didn't feel it to be true about myself, but if I reflect back upon my childhood or I tell stories about my childhood, then people will be like, oh my gosh, I can't believe that's so crazy that you had that experience. But my grandparents were cattle ranchers and they had 2000 acres and they had cattle that we raised and we would move them from one plot of land to the next seasonally. And I rode horses from a really early age and we also lived near a big open pasture and it was definitely the kind of childhood where my parents were like, see you at dark, and we would just disappear and come back, which as I think about that as a parent now, I have so much anxiety about the possibility of saying that to my children. So I guess I definitely did have a wild and free childhood, and I also grew up on an Indian reservation in Montana, so there was I guess maybe some element of that really piqued that curiosity in me about other lands and other countries. And for me it was also not a community I was really a part of, so it felt like inaccessible and I thought maybe in my mind some of these other places it would be more accessible. I don't know, but those are some of those reflections backwards. Trying to understand where you ended up.
Esme: So did you feel like you couldn't be curious and make friends with anyone from that community because your side of the community would frowned upon it or what was the dynamic there?
Christine: It was a very interesting situation because most Indian reservations are predominantly the residents are Native Americans and the town where we happened to live, it was completely the opposite. So I guess there was a little bit of that dynamic. And also my grandmother was a registered tribal elder, so I had parts of me that really identified with that, but it was never acknowledged in my own family that was a part of our culture. And so yeah, there definitely felt like I couldn't really belong to that even though part of me truly did. So it's definitely something I have wrestled with also as I've grown up and reflected on some of these internal struggles or curiosities or the things that you realized made you who you were, because you've always really been thinking about them,
Esme: There's definitely tracks with the trajectory that your career has taken. Speaking of which, how did you get into the travel industry? Is that something you always were interested in or did it just kind of happen?
Christine: I think much like everybody, it kind of happened and also in reflecting back always was meant to happen. I think I also grew up in a very touristed destination, so I witnessed tourism happening to where I lived every year. I would see this transient community that would come in and kind of set up camp at the base of Flathead Lake where I grew up in Montana, and the place that was really special to me all of a sudden was inundated by strangers and people who I didn't feel like respected where I was from. So I know, again, looking back, that was really a strong part of where I would end up because that was my foundation in understanding tourism. I also had jobs working in Glacier Park and Yellowstone after college, so an entrance into tourism as well. I worked for the Chamber of Commerce in Yellowstone, which was a really fun summer gig in college.
And then ended up, I think much like many people following a boy to San Francisco, I really wanted to get out of Montana so much and I found a tourism program and was just like, yes, of course I'll move there. That will be great. And I took this crazy tourism program, which is not aligned with who I am at all now, but was a great tool for understanding that. And then ended up working for pretty early in my career for Linblad Expeditions and within that company started to see the values of tourism that would become really important to me in terms of conservation and community and kind of a little bit more mindful travel were some of the conversations we were starting to have. And then I really started to focus on being in the industry on purpose.
Esme: So I'd love to take you back to where your life was at before this trip. It sounds like from the production notes you were having maybe a bit of a quarter life crisis. Yeah. Tell us what was going on for you at that time.
Christine: Yeah, definitely an early a quarter life crisis. I love that. I feel like a lot of us have a quarter life crisis, so that should really be the one that we worry about or maybe are excited for because I think that is the one that sends us out on this path that leads us to where we're really meant to be. But I had bounced from this trip to San Francisco to Washington back to Montana and was having this definitely quarter life crisis. I love that. I'm going to hang on to that. I had at some point in my time, watched a movie where this woman was freaking out because she was 23 and she wasn't married and didn't have a career and her life was over. And I was approaching that age and I was like, oh my God, I've done the same thing, which is really just ridiculous now looking back.
But that's very much how I felt. And I met someone and ended up becoming engaged fairly quickly, got married, moved back to Washington, and I don't know, within minutes felt like, oh yeah, we've definitely made the wrong choice here. And because I was a very type A people pleaser person, I was going to definitely ride it out because that's what you should do. And all these things just started happening in my life that I was like, okay, we are not going to make it through this. And so at some point I went from the newlywed to divorced phase within a year, which was a huge emotionally turbulent thing to happen and decided, and I have no idea why, because looking back and as I was preparing for our conversation, I don't know what told me to travel, but again, I guess it was this whisper of whatever's out there for you is somewhere else out in the world. And so I just decided I was going to quit my job and travel somewhere, and then eventually Thailand was the only choice. And again, I don't know why, but even looking back, there was no other place that I had thought about going. I just was going to go to Thailand. So that was kind of how that transpired.
Esme: And I think you had read the book The Beach by Alex Garland, which I'm sure many of our listeners have read it, but it's basically the story of this backpacker in Thailand who finds a map to a secret lagoon beach that's hidden on an island. And there is a community of travelers who have built a commune there, which he joins their commune and at First Paradise, but then it takes a turn and it quickly devolves into something scary. It's kind of a dark book. So I'm really curious to know why you were like, this is making me want to go to Thailand.
Christine: Yeah, it's very funny because it obviously it's a very dark book, but I think I was really drawn to that sense of community for one, and the beauty that you did see within the character of the book and then later the movie obviously as well, you saw the literal beauty of the country, but there was just that, I think what I did is I really resonated with the pull of that character to go there and to get lost and be found kind of simultaneously. And so I desperately wanted that. And also all growing up, I wanted that community and I just saw those travelers and kind of the band of misfits and aching souls as my people. And so I think that's what I went toward. And also I had, I guess a real interest in, I ended up getting a degree in sociology and criminology, and so kind of the inner workings of minds and the way groups of people think this was something I didn't know about myself at that point yet either, but I was really interested. So that book just for some reason, it was, yeah, I think that planted the seed that this was the place that you could go and find yourself and people like you and people who wouldn't turn you away because you're 23 and divorced and you're completely unsuccessful and failing at life, which is what I felt about myself in the moment.
Esme: I remember after, I think I was probably in my second year of college and I was really missing time. I was going through kind of a hard time where I wasn't getting on with my roommates, and I used to just watch the movie The Beach on repeat because, but only the first half before it goes wrong, before the shark attack, all the craziness because it made me feel so comforted and like, oh God, it was just so nice to inhabit that world for a minute and forget about my present troubles. But yeah, I understand the appeal, but I think doesn't the character say something along the lines of he almost wants to court the danger and the unknown and maybe the place that you were at in your life right then that was something that was appealing to you as well, this idea of reinventing ourselves. Why is travel so good for reorienting and reinventing ourselves?
Christine: Yeah. Well, before I go there too is the end of the movie, if you're watching the movie, he's sitting in the internet cafe, which also I have so much nostalgia for.
Esme: Yes.
Christine: And all the pictures pop up and the Andy's okay, right? He has this incredibly traumatic experience, which obviously I wasn't seeking out, but he did survive and it became the thing that he could kind of move forward from. So I think that's also, I was looking for healing. And so I think that is really what travel can do is just create this space for understanding who you are and giving you a different perspective and then giving you the space and the place to heal. The way I look at the world or I look at places is that every one of them is kind of holding this thing for you and you just have to go and be open to receive it. And I think you can even visit a place many times and you're not ready for whatever it has to teach you or to give to you, or it's planting the seed until you are ready. But I really, really strongly believe, and not just in the power of travel, but I think in the power of people and the power of place and really the power of humanity, but travel is what gets you out into the world so that you can access all of those things.
Esme: And I definitely think we're in a very open, suggestible kind of a state when we're traveling. I feel like, I mean this is a cliche, but it feels like becoming a child again and everything is amazing and you're open to these different encounters and experiences that you might not be when you just got blinders on in your everyday life. So I think that makes it really good for reinventing ourselves as well.
Christine: Yeah, I mean definitely you can tell I'm looking for magic when I'm out there, so I'm definitely more open and creating space for that happen. But I fully agree, you just show up more fully as yourself and are present to things. And I even joke that sometimes I'll be traveling and I'll be like, oh, I didn't know I loved papaya, or I didn't know I was a person who loved X, Y, Z. And you only learn that because you're in these places that are presenting those opportunities to you. So you're both open and there's all these new stimulus and these things that you can discover about yourself, and maybe you didn't know that you loved scuba diving or you didn't know that you loved Thai dance or whatever it is because you had never been exposed to it in your life, but you get out there and start moving through the world and then you kind of pick up these clues about who you actually are.
Esme: I love that. So talk us through what the plan was for the trip. Did you have any sort of itinerary in mind, or were you just going to go with the flow?
Christine: It's really funny reflecting on this right now because I have a 13 year old daughter, and every bit about what I did gives me so much anxiety context of being a mother. So I'm sorry mom, but I had no plan. I had zero plan. I just knew that's where I was going. And we mentioned the beach, but also right before I left, broke down, palace was a really popular movie, so everyone was very sure that something was going to go very wrong for me when I was in this country between those two pieces of social information about what happens in Thailand. So I didn't really want to go by myself. I eventually convinced a really good friend of mine to travel with me, and we booked tickets for six weeks and we booked our first night in Bangkok when we arrived, and then we had no plan.
We literally on the plane over opened up our lonely planets and started circling and bending pages to figure out where we might go, but we had no plan and we were sitting in the very back row of the plane against the galley with the seats that don't go back for 14 hours and talking with the people in our row, and it was like one of the three five threes. So there was a whole bunch of us in that really uncomfortable section of the plane, and they were all like, oh, I don't think this is okay. Are you girls sure, let me give you my cell phone number. No, there was no cell phone numbers, but let me give you the hotel. You cannot do this. This is not okay. And so my girlfriend and I were like, well, are we a little bit crazy for doing this? But we just were like, no, it's going to be fine. So we arrived and no plans and just kind of open to whatever was going to sound the most interesting whatever. We had no idea we were open to every possibility.
Esme: And what were your first impressions when you arrived in Bangkok?
Christine: It was so overwhelming to the senses, especially after such a long flight, but it's obviously so different than Montana and even living in Washington when I left, I can just really, really recall coming this huge escalator out of customs and picking up our luggage and the walls are just sweating and there's this huge glass wall with just moisture running down it. And in my mind I see bugs everywhere, but I dunno if that's true, which I also know you love and you couldn't quite see out of that giant wall because of the condensation running down it, but you could start to sense the frenetic energy that lay upon the outside of that wall. And then we went through the doors and there's just so many people, and it was probably the first time that I had ever traveled anywhere where I didn't know the language at all.
And so it just was like noise. There was no words I could pick up on. And there was just all these people with signs and all this craziness, and I think we had just read, don't have anyone take your luggage, all the things that you read at the airport, just get outside of that and then try to figure out your way. So we did that and we landed at probably one 30 in the morning. So it's really the middle of the night. And then the next thing we have to do is cross this. It felt like a 77 lane road to get to where we needed to go to Cason Road. And it took us a long time to convince ourselves, and I feel like this was in every movie as well, but to cross that road, which we finally did and then made it to our hotel and we were so jet lagged that we ended up going out and walking around and it, it was Halloween when we landed. There was this huge M T V block party on Casson Road, so there was all these M T V signs and just garbage and craziness. And it was such a weird experience like, wait, where did we land? I didn't think there was Halloween here. I didn't think there's M T V here. It was just this very overloaded experience. So that's how we landed into Thailand, was just completely knocked off of our feet and a lot having no bearings.
Esme: I think in the beach he says about how the coast road is the gateway to Southeast Asia from so many people. And it's just funny that when you arrive there as a young person, it's the most overwhelming place that you could begin your trip. But that's where everyone goes because it's the place. But God, since then when I've gone back, I've stayed in really nice hotels on the outskirts of the city where it's quiet and peaceful, totally different experience and probably a similar price point to what you would pay on the coast Sam Road.
Christine: It's crazy.
Esme: Thailand is such a great destination for young travelers in particular. I think it's pretty safe, great tourism infrastructure, and a pretty well trodden path through the country. What were some of the experiences that stand out that you guys did together that you would recommend for other people?
Christine: Well, it's been 20 years, so I don't think any of the experience I could recommend would even happen. And even I've been researching going this year, and I'm kind of nervous because I have this nostalgia for things like internet cafes and I mean, there were no phones. I remember paying someone to use a phone to kind of check in and let my parents know I was still alive and you couldn't just Google the place to go. It was a very different way of traveling, which I actually just desperately wish to return to sometimes because that also felt very, there was just something so much more participatory about it, or you had to make your own way. It wasn't just given to you. You had to strike up a conversation. Someone had to tell you about this island or this beach or this trek or something so that you knew where to go.
I mean, we did have a guidebook, but you still wanted to hear it from somebody else that whatever was printed there was really true. But I think the experiences I loved the most were that somehow we landed every nude place that we were going after dark. So we would arrive off of a ferry or off of a bus in the middle of the night, often walking down dark streets, had no electricity and looking for a place to stay, and then just booking one night because we had no idea where we were. And then waking up the next morning and discovering what you had actually picked. And so that was just one of the coolest experiences. But I did do a trek out of Chang Mai to one of the Tribe, a Hill Tribe Trek. And for me, that was the most impactful experience I think I had personally.
And again, it was very different. And again, so Ill advised the way that when it happened for me, but the day before we left for our trek, there had been an incident on one of the trails and one of the other groups that had left the hostel there guide had been shot at by someone in one of the villages. And we think because he was perhaps having an affair with one of the women, but all of the travelers with him on the trek went running through the jungle to escape the gunfire and kind of made their way back to Chiang Mai is how we heard the story. We saw them coming in and they were crying, and it probably was like the beach, I was going to say, this has got beach mountains all over it. And so they sat us down and they said, this is what happened.
And the US government isn't going to allow you to go on this route anymore. It's closed right now until they can investigate the cause. But what we can do is send you on this other route. Nobody's really been traveling there. We can't guarantee the accommodations. It's been a long time since we've sent anyone. Do you still want to go? And the answer should have been no, but the answer was yes. So we set off, and then what happened is that we got to take this incredible journey and see no one because no one was on that trail. We also got completely lost because our guide was friends with the man who was shot. So he was grieving. He was probably mildly intoxicated much of the time. He kind of knew where we were going, but we ended up at one point, he was like, I know the next village is along a river.
So we found the river and walked through the river for several hours and landed in the village and we arrived, and I had leeches all over my ankles, which I also know you're going to really love, and it should have been so traumatic. And yet when we arrived at that village, the people were so excited to receive us because they hadn't had travelers in so long. And I also had this moment of arriving there, and they had this giant garbage bag full of the small bags of potato chips, of Doritos and Cheetos, and I thought, incredible because I'm soaked and covered in leeches and nothing is going to taste better than Cheetos. And where on earth did these come from? Because I just hiked two days literally in the middle of nowhere. I don't even know where I'm to get here. And so that was kind of a seed planted later for community-based tourism and what does that look like and some of those things.
But in the interim, we came into their village, they had this big kind of barn with a bamboo floor with huge spots missing out of it that we slept on these mats in and had a great conversation, and it was so fun. And then the next day, again, kind of lost in the jungles of Thailand. We came upon another place where they were having a wedding and they invited us to come with them to this wedding. And so we, wow, that must be amazing. And they took us to this wedding and it was incredible. I just remembered that moment of belonging, of feeling so welcomed in a place where we probably shouldn't have been and how gracious they were and how much they wanted us to be a part of this celebration. And the people getting married were just like, look at these backpackers just showed up at our wedding. And it was just really cool. But that was kind of the initial, again, understanding of that type of connection when we travel was what was so powerful. And really being somewhere as a guest and really being somewhere and understanding what was happening, trying to figure out how to be as respectful to the places possible, given how we showed up and arrived there. All of these things began to teach me about what I would later really about travel. So that experience beyond it being incredibly beautiful was really impactful.
Esme: It sounds like everyone talks about how they want an authentic travel experience, but I think it's becoming more and more difficult, as you alluded to earlier, to have one of those experiences because we've lost so much with the internet and smartphones. I was speaking to Anthony Bourdain's, assistant Laurie in an early episode from the season, and she was talking about the Bourdain effect where a tiny restaurant that Anthony Bourdain and his TV crew would've stumbled across would be on the show and then achieve worldwide fame. And it would either be great for them or it would crush them because they couldn't cater to all those people. And yeah, it feels very much like those experiences that you had where you stumble across something or you are invited in by a local and you see this side of the culture that most people don't see are becoming more and more rare. Do you think that's true, or do you think that's just how it feels?
Christine: Yeah, no, absolutely. Because I think today they would have satellite and they would have a cell phone and somebody would've called and somebody would've told us that's not where we're supposed to be, or it would've just been so much more control. I don't think we literally would've had the ability to have gotten that lost, and that was really how it happened. I think that some of that is almost impossible, and I think parts of me still want to set out to parts unknown and find that that is, I think the young version of me even watching Indiana Jones and Romancing the Stone and reading National Geographic, I really wanted that. I wanted that discovery and that thing that is, it is romanticized, but I think it's also something that makes us feel most alive because we feel like we've discovered something or that something's really special and sacred and not everybody else can have that experience. And I think it is so much harder to have that now, and that's why I really focus on connection with people because as much as everything else is curated, you can't really curate that connection. You can create space for it. But that I think is where we can still tap into that magic and that unknown and unexpected
Esme: Had trips like the one with the Hill tribe, was that something that you did regularly when you traveled? Do you always seek out remote communities and indigenous communities, or was this the first time that you were having that kind of experience?
Christine: That was definitely the first time, because that was the first time I'd ever traveled like this. I had traveled back and forth to Mexico a few times, taking groups to and from boats when I was working, but I hadn't really just been a traveler like this. So that was definitely the first time, but also not the last time. I really wanted to be able to experience that. And my friends will always joke that they're like, if there's more indoor plumbing than not, Christina's definitely not going there. And I just went to Europe for the very first time last year of all of the places I've ever traveled. It was the first time going. So I definitely seek out all the experiences that allow you to really be outside of, I guess what we know in the western world or in the US as our normal daily experience. I really want to push myself out. And I also feel like the space for connection feels to me more real. And maybe that goes back to Montana and small towns and the way that I moved through space in my early childhood. That's where I feel comfortable moving through the world is in similar spaces and in big cities, I tend to be overwhelmed and confused and lose my bearings. I do love cities, and I've lived in New York and San Francisco, but I would much rather be out in the wild, I guess.
Esme: And so when you were headed home, did you feel like you had any greater sense of clarity around what you were going to do with your life when you got back to Seattle?
Christine: No, I definitely did not have clarity yet. Actually. I remember staying up all night in Bangkok on Casson Road again, just being like, I'm just canceling my flight. There's no way I'm going home. I'm not leaving this. I'm not leaving this place and I'm not leaving this version of myself. I feel so alive and I feel like I'm learning so much. Why would I leave this? But I was still carrying that need to be on the right track, and I was like, okay, this is enough of a diversion. I've got to figure out again what I'm supposed to be doing. And so I headed back and I think that I was really only in Seattle for a short while and then went back to Montana, went back to university and started studying sociology and criminology and actually ended up with a great professor who had a project working in Thailand.
And so working in remote healthcare in Thailand was her thesis thing that she was working on in the moment. So I got help and study with her, which was great. And then I think not long after that as well as when the tsunami happened, I was getting ready to return back to Thailand, and probably a week before that that happened. And so again, in that moment I started thinking about tourism and thinking about what had happened. And there was this moment where I was thinking of the few places that I felt were really impacted were so over touristed even when I was there and didn't feel like the other parts of Thailand to me. And I thought, gosh, what if they had the chance to rebuild in a way that honored Thailand and who they were? And so actually from those conversations that I was having found a sustainable tourism development program at George Washington and then applied to that. So I didn't really have clarity per se from that trip, but it really shaped this greater understanding and kind of again, started to reveal who I should be.
Esme: And ultimately you would go on to set up your travel company, Lotus Sojourns, which is an adventure company for women who want to experience mindful travel with an emphasis on connection, exploration, and transformation. And I know that the Lotus symbol, your company's names Sake, was something you first really started to think about and encounter while you were in Thailand. So can you tell us what it means and how it influenced you?
Christine: Yeah, so for me, I definitely was going through a period of rebirth and renewal. And so that's really the lotus is the symbol of things coming from darkness to the light and being reborn and rebirth, and that you really actually do have to go through those periods of darkness in order to even recognize and acknowledge the light. So for me, when I heard that in that moment, it was horrible because it's like I don't want that to be the truth of anything, but it was obviously I was living it. And so again, seed planted, this is an experience that's really important in people's lives, and actually travel can really help to facilitate an awareness around that. And then I was traveling again many years later in Egypt and kind of heard the same story of the Lotus. And so I was just kind of reminded how important this is in people's journeys is that we really are accustomed to trying to run away from the darkness or hide from it or put it away. And I think culturally we're shifting and recognizing how we need to have all these parts of our lives as humans, but I really wanted to create a space for being intentional about moving through that experience. So that's where the Lotus for my company really came from is to let people know. That's what I'm hoping for them in their experience, their
Esme: Experience. I'd love to hear more about the actual trips and retreats that you offer and what makes them unique. I mean, it sounds like I imagine you get a lot of people coming to you who are in those in-between moments in life and they're looking for to be raised up out of the, as you said.
Christine: Yeah, I mean, definitely when I started my business, which in and of itself has been a lotus because I launched right before the pandemic, so that was such a perfect time. So I had run one trip of trips that I had designed in Guatemala, which was incredible, but the process of even understanding what I want my trips to be, but very much for women who are in those moments of transition, because I resonate so strongly with that and I really want women to know, one, it's okay to have those experiences, and two, those are the beautiful places of growth and especially amongst communities of women, both as travelers and in the moments that I create for women to connect with other women and the places that we travel. And so that became the foundation of the trips. And the first one that I created in Guatemala was in connection with a women's social impact project there where they're creating educational opportunities for women who are artisans to start their own businesses and earn an income to support themselves and really ultimately support their daughters who have little to no chance of having a continued education.
And this group of artisans is just the generation that's said, that's not going to happen to my daughters. And I met them through another company that I was working with. And when I met the founder, I told her I wanted to create these women's trips, and I really wanted women to connect with women like the women that she was working with in Guatemala. So we went there and in this trip we have a series of group exercises or experiences. One is really understanding your purpose and your why. And so we sit with one of the communities of women, some of the women who don't speak English and don't speak Spanish even. We have translators to local dialects, and we draw what our dreams are for ourselves, for our children, and then everybody stands up and talks about their picture. And it's the most powerful experience that I've ever had.
And for me in particular, the last woman that shared was probably I 19 or 20, and she had a picture of an airplane and she said, when I grow up, I want to be you. I want to see the world. And I was like, oh, okay, I can get through this experience. But because I showed up and told my story and showed her that that's possible, I think that's possible. And then she also was running a group for young women to teach them about menstruation and puberty and women's health and let them be empowered by that knowledge instead of it being something that in their communities is a thing that holds them back. And they were so excited. And these 12 little girls came up to me and they're like, yeah, we want to tell you what we know about all these things. And again, I was just like, oh my gosh, this is unreal.
These exchanges of information and community. So we did that and then we met with a Mayan priest that shared our nal, which is your purpose, kind of like your astrological sign. And then in the end we met with another artisan cooperative and shared about our why. So now that we know our dream and we know our purpose, why are we committed to this? And so then we did that ceremony and shared, again, like a drawing and then we a bracelet that had some symbols with the artisans to kind of remind us of that path that we had been on. So that's kind of an example of the experience that I'm trying to use travel as this way to really move women through some of these transitions and experiences that they're having in their lives.
Esme: I love that. And I also love that you connect in a meaningful way with these communities that you're embedding yourself within, because that's something I tried to highlight a lot at full-time travel is that it's a privilege for us to be in these places and they give so much to us. We're having these transformative experiences, but how can we make sure that they are also feeling good about us being there? And I guess it also goes back to your experiences growing up in a touristy area of Montana. Those wheels were already turning when you were a kid, thinking about how can we make these interactions really positive for everybody? And not just financially, but in terms of connections that are made and the levels of respect that are being shown.
Christine: Yeah, I mean, definitely a driver. I just know so many moments where I would be aware that I felt like I was taking more than I was giving or the system was created for that to happen, or even taking pictures of people I would feel like it was kind of voyeuristic or I was encroaching upon something that's special or sacred and not mine. And when I was having those feelings, we weren't talking about things that we have been talking about in the past three years. So I didn't have language for it, I just had the feeling. And it definitely was tied to that, me as a child being like, I wish I could go hang out at the lake. There's no space for me because there's all of these tourists here. And so yeah, I think I always am really trying to be aware of what it means that I am there.
And I always am telling people, you have to travel as if you are in someone else's home, as if you are a guest, as if this place is not yours. You have no right to be here. Not in a negative way, but just it's not just something you should assume. You have to know that this is someone else's life and you don't just get to skim through and take a highlight reel that you get to post later, which didn't exist when I first started traveling, thank goodness. But yeah, just really being present to what every part of your actions is creating outside of the moment that you're in.
Esme: And I know you're about to go on a really epic trip with your daughters for a full 12 months. Tell us about what the plan is.
Christine: Yeah, so we started talking about this when my oldest daughter was about seven, and I obviously, I'm always speaking about travel, and she is like, oh, I definitely want to see the world too. And now she has two younger sisters and the youngest now is seven. And we just at one point said, let's make this real. And so we picked the planned time, which will be when my oldest is in eighth grade, and started thinking about where we would want to go, why we would want to go, what we would be looking for. And again, we've been really seeking out destinations where people have invited us. For instance, I've wanted to go to India for as long as I can remember, and I now know five or six women there who have all said, please, when you're on this journey, come. So I feel like it's a place that we can go and kind of be received, and I want for them to have that experience of knowing people everywhere we go.
I think it's such a different way of traveling because it does feel like you're being welcomed there and you're not going there as a tourist. You're going there for a purpose. And then also just thinking about the ways that we can connect with other women's artisan groups and social gender equity initiatives and all these things that I'm passionate about, how I can use this year to kind of deepen my understanding of that within travel, but take them through that experience as well. And my oldest is already holding me accountable to that because even several years ago I said, where do you want to go and what do you want to do? And she's like, well, she also wants to go to India quite a lot, but she would mention a few places. And she said, now will we visit women's groups in every country that we go to? That should be the plan. And I was like, oh, you're such my kid. But yeah, trying to share with them as much as I can to start thinking about what it means to have this experience because most people don't get to have this experience.
Esme: It's going to be incredible. Whatcha guys going to do about the
Christine: Schooling? We're doing some online, I guess, formalized training through, there's so many learning apps, especially after the Pandemic. No one wanted to go through that, but we saw that we could homeschool and we saw that we could school online and that we could use digital learning and that we could all be together for a long period of time. So yeah, that's kind of what we're going to do. And then they each have their own things that they're passionate about, and I want them that to guide their exploration. And so my middle daughter loves writing and she loves art, so she has kind of come up with the idea of learning about folklore or different kind of mythology in different areas. And then she wants to write her own version and draw her own version of that. And my oldest daughter is a dancer and also really into food.
So that's kind of her way of exploring the world. And my youngest keeps asking how many states we're going to visit, so I don't think she understands what we're doing yet. So she will probably learn the most of everyone, but using all of our experiences, learning a little bit about the local language so that we can communicate, they'll each have assignments along the way, including my oldest is going to be in charge of our social media and the stuff that I don't want to do because she's really good at that because that's what teenagers do now. So yeah, that's our education is going to be a blend of the fact that the world is education and then also a few of those things that have to do anyway.
Esme: God, I love this. It makes me so excited for my daughter to be a little older, so we can go on adventures together. Before you go, I'd also love to talk about Soul Travel, your podcast, which I'm on to have been a guest on recently. I would love for you to tell our listeners about Soul Travel because I know they're going to love it. There's a lot of crossover themes.
Christine: Yeah, thank you for mentioning that. So Soul of Travel really came out of the pandemic as well. Like I said, I officially launched my business on International Women's Day in 2019 and then ramped up and then had a big launch in February of 2020. So I had basically just started my company when everything shut down, and I canceled my next two trips to Guatemala, a trip to Jordan and Peru, and had spent, at that point, probably 15 or so years in the tourism industry. And I just remember standing in the shower crying, actually thinking, oh my God, this is it. This is when tourism dies. I don't know how we're going to get through this. And then the next breath was actually, I think this is the moment we've been waiting for, and I just started thinking about all of the people that I've been so fortunate to work with who have been focused on impact driven tourism, community-based tourism, really creating connections within the places that they travel.
And I knew that they would be reaching out to support those communities, that they would be thinking of guides on the ground, restaurateurs, hotels that they go to who lost everything in this, not just their company, but everything. And so just in that moment I thought about, what is this? What is this thing? And I'm like, this is the soul of travel. This is why we do this. And so I emailed a slew of people and I said, can I talk to you about why you do what you do? Because everyone is talking about travel as if it's this behemoth that just doesn't need to exist anymore. And I think that it does, and you are why it does. And so I started having those conversations and then in the first conversation with Gabby Stoll at the Adventure Travel Trade Association, we started talking about what it's like to be a woman in this industry, especially in the adventure travel industry, and the amount of women that whose story are being told within the industry, especially around the world.
And so then the next season it became Voices of Women, and I started speaking with women who are working to create a positive impact in the tourism industry. And for me, this was completely unexpected, but has been probably one of the most beautiful parts of my journey. Every day when I get to have conversations, the one with you, I just can't believe I get to share space with these incredible humans and have the privilege sharing their story and curating all of those stories together into this thing that when I scroll through and I see all these names, it takes my breath away of how many incredible women are doing the work that they're doing. So that's really where the soul of travel came from. And moving forward, I'm just looking to increase that reach and impact more women and have more women listening. Right now, I think we have listeners in 80 countries,
Which is just amazing. I'll see something. We've been probably the number one podcast in Pakistan for months, and I'm like, I don't know how many people are listening. I don't really know what that means. But I certainly didn't expect that. And I just think who's listening to that? I go back to myself when I was 10 in Montana and I wanted to know things were possible. I'm like, maybe it's that person. And so for me, I see the power of collecting these voices together and putting them out into the world to create real change in the industry and in the world at large.
Esme: I love that. And I know the Pandemic was a universally bad time, but there was so much innovation and so much comradery that came out of it as well. So it's wonderful to see things like solar travel flourishing because we need that in this world.
Christine: Yeah, thank you. And I agree.
Esme: Alright, so reflecting back on your adventures in Thailand, how do you think that trip changed you?
Christine: I think that it gave me the courage to do crazy things and to trust in myself and to know that no matter what happened, I was going to be able to come out on the other side of it. And I think it also really changed my understanding of what the world is beyond. It reaffirmed what I knew it could be, but it really let me know that there's this greater world and this greater community and that we really need to have an understanding of what that means to each one of us. And I think that that was a huge change for me to be able to have the confidence to tell other people that they could travel and have these experiences and that it was really important in their lives and not a luxury and not frivolous, but something that's really necessary.
Esme: That's beautiful. Thank you so much. Christine, where can people find you on the internet?
Christine: They can find me at She Sojourns. That's my personal page at Lotus Sojourns for Travel, soul of Travel podcast, for the podcast and for the upcoming trip. If they're curious at Sisters Sojourn is our going to be our family travel Instagram. Lovely.
Esme: And before you go, I'd love to do a quick fire round. Great. What's the one thing every person should experience in their lifetime?
Christine: Community and belonging and knowing their true value.
Esme: What's the one thing you never, ever travel without?
Christine: I was just sharing this with my daughter, my headlamp.
Esme: Oh, really?
Christine: Yes.
Esme: That's unexpected.
Christine: I know, and it's actually, even when I just went to New York, it was in my backpack.
Esme: You never know
Christine: Everywhere. You never know. I don't want to be on a subway without a head.
Esme: If you could teleport anywhere just for the day, where would you go and what would you do?
Christine: I don't know why. The first thing that came to my mind was Aman, so I guess that must be a place that I would go. I would love to go back and just, it was a really unexpected destination for me that I loved so much, and I was only there for a short while, so I would love to go back and just re-experience it and see why it felt that way and reconnect to what it was there that felt really special.
Esme: Beach, mountains or city and why
Christine: Mountains. But if I could also have a lake or water that would be preferred. And yeah, I just love the awe. I would say that would be another thing I would love people to experience is awe. And I think in the mountains is where I always find it.
Esme: What's the most interesting food you've tasted while traveling?
Christine: As you know, there's so many things I would say in Thailand, the stick of crickets, fried crickets. Very interesting. So that one,
Esme: What's the recommendation for a podcast, a book, or a show to stay entertained on a long journey?
Christine: My favorite podcast that I listen to outside of the Space of Travel is pulling the thread with Elise Lunan, and I could listen to it forever. She interviews authors about all of these kinds of amazing things that we should be thinking about to pull apart human existence. So I love that one.
Esme: I used to listen to her on the, so I'll add that one. And where is next on your bucket list?
Christine: Well, whole Wide World is happening, but I think one of the things, places I'm most excited for in that journey is India. It's been another place that has called to my soul from an early age, and I can't wait to see now. I feel like I'm ready to go there. I hope my daughters are ready to go there, but I'm definitely ready to go there.
Esme: Oh yeah, you're going to have an amazing time. I'm so jealous. Christine, thank you so much. It's been so fun chatting with you.
Christine: Thank you. I really appreciate it.
Esme: Thank you for listening to this week's episode. I hope you liked it. We'll be back in two weeks time with more inspiring travel stories for your ears. In the meantime, you can learn more about us by visiting fulltime travel.co or following us on Instagram at Full Time Travel. If you have a story you want to share on the trip that changed me, drop us a line, and please be sure to rate, review, and follow so we can keep this adventure going.
Christine: You for listening to Soul of Travel. I hope you enjoyed the journey. If this sounds like your community welcome, I'm so happy to connect with you. You can find more about the ways you can be a part of the Soul of Travel and Lotus Sojourn community@www.lotussojourns.com. Here you can find out more about Soul of Travel and my guests. You can also find the Lotus Sojourns I Guide for Women, as well as my current book, sojourn, offering an opportunity to explore your heart, mind, and the world through the pages of books specially selected to create a unique journey. You can find me on Facebook at Lotus Sojourns and join our community, the Lotus Sojourns Collective, or follow me on Instagram, either at Lotus Sojourns or Soul of Travel podcast. Join the Lotus Sojourns mailing list. I look forward to getting to know you and hopefully hear your story.
You can find me on Facebook at Lotus Sojourns on Facebook, or join the Lotus Sojourns Collective, our FB community, or follow me on Instagram either @lotussojourns or @souloftravelpodcast. Stay up to date by joining the Lotus Sojourns mailing list. I look forward to getting to know you and hopefully hearing your story.