Episode 167 - Jessica Brooks, Eternal Landscapes Mongolia
In this episode of the Soul of Travel Podcast, Christine hosts a soulful conversation with Jessica Brooks, founder of Eternal Landscapes Mongolia.
Jessica is the co-founder of Eternal Landscapes Mongolia, a Mongolian-registered tour company.
As an experienced international tour leader, Jessica’s journey led her to Mongolia, where she has been based since 2006. In 2010, she co-founded Eternal Landscapes with a local partner, Turuu, challenging traditional tourism perceptions of the country and breaking down the cliches and stereotypes in tourism. Eternal Landscapes is a business with a social conscience driven by a clear set of ethics and values. They offer immersive experiences throughout Mongolia that prioritize women’s empowerment, community engagement, and inclusivity to create a positive lasting change; their nomenclature is “business with a social conscience.”
Their pride lies in their commitment to making a positive impact in Mongolia, supporting a diverse spectrum of Mongolian society, and challenging the conventional stereotypes and clichés associated with tourism in Mongolia.
A highlight of their commitment is 'Chandmana Erdene,’ an initiative to provide long-term tourism training and employment opportunities for Mongolian women. Jessica is motivated by the following quote: “‘But what can I do, I am just one person?’ said 7 billion people.” She endeavors to make her own small corner of the world a better place.
The Draw of Mongolia
While Jess did not grow up traveling, her early twenties brought the opportunity to travel with the flexibility of time. After working in a number of places, she ended up in Greece working in a small cafe, where one of her patrons suggested she might become a tour guide. The seed was planted.
She then began working for a tourism company that sent her to Mongolia for four seasons. Her lead driver, Turuu, suggested that she might start her own company, which seemed at the time to be beyond out of the question.
But as she continued to wonder what might be possible with such a business, she found that was exactly what she wanted to do, and she and Turuu created Eternal Landscapes Mongolia.
The second-largest landlocked country in the world, Mongolia is home to grand, immense landscapes and incredible people who make these landscapes their home.
“If you’re afraid, don’t start. But once you start, don’t be afraid.”
Launching a Business from a New Perspective
Jess and Turuu had an idea for a tourism company in Mongolia—without business experience or particularly solid connections in the industry. But they took that knowledge and willingness to train, to believe in themselves, and to try something new as the very tenets of their own company, which provides opportunities for community members in tourism.
While Eternal Landscapes Mongolia is a for-profit company, they are intentionally small; every trip they run puts support back into the team, into their extended network, and especially back into the community.
Community Impact
Creating a network of community-based tour guides and experience hosts requires openness, respect, and patience. Christine and Jess discuss the different ways in which Eternal Landscapes honors the community with each experience and trip. For example, in some regions, it would be unwise, out of season, and even harmful to show up and expect to be able to hunt with the eagles (typically a winter activity). When tourism companies continue to put pressure on hosts to offer this experience during the summer, they are asking families to take away their time from their livestock — the primary focus of many communities during that time of year.
To support this flexibility and deepened understanding, Jess and her teams have created community guides. With the support of her sustainability guide, the team has put metrics into place to provide data to reflect these shifts in understanding and in tourism planning.
When Jessica and Turuu set the intention to create roles for women within the circuit of guides, they encountered a number of roadblocks. But those women who did decide to take on a tourism role have reported more economic opportunities, empowerment, more growth, and a deep sense of accomplishment and job satisfaction. Many of the women who have joined as tour guides with Eternal Landscapes are either still with the company or have moved on to new opportunities.
Expanding Impact
To address spreading financial support throughout the year, Eternal Landscapes has worked to retain the team during the long winter off-season. Based on the success of what the female teams have gone to achieve and additional reports on women in tourism, Jessica and her team launched an off-season training program with the eventual intention to create a community center and tourism training center on the land owned by the company.
Nearby tourism companies would be able to then send women to the training center to become guides, with education centered around sustainability, community development, and so much more.
“It’s remarkable the talent that is out there — the talent in community, in sustainability, in travel, in tourism, in business — in all different forms. I take inspiration from that.”
Soul of Travel Episode 167 At a Glance
In this conversation, Christine and Jess discuss:
The sense of family, love, and joy fostered by the Mongolian communities visited by Eternal Landscapes
The power of slow, mindful travel
Nature-positive travel, responsible photography, and true community-based tourism
Ways to create responsive itineraries based on community engagement and respect
Join Christine now for this soulful conversation with Jessica Brooks.
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Related UN Sustainable Development Goals
Sustainable Development Goal #5: Achieve gender equality and empower all women and girls.
Sustainable Development Goal #10: Reduce inequality within and among countries.
Sustainable Development Goal #13: Take urgent action to combat climate change and its impacts.
Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode
Visit https://www.eternal-landscapes.co.uk/ to find out more about Eternal Landscapes Mongolia.
Get to know Jessica and Eternal Landscapes on your favorite social media network! Instagram / Facebook / LinkedIn / Twitter
Learn more about the community center Jessica and her team are building at https://www.eternal-landscapes.co.uk/chandmana-erdene-a-circular-approach-to-tourism/.
About the Soul Of Travel Podcast
Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of people making a positive impact in the tourism industry. In each episode, you’ll hear the stories of women who are industry professionals, seasoned travelers, and community leaders. Our expert guests represent social impact organizations, adventure-based community organizations, travel photography and videography, and entrepreneurs who know that travel is an opportunity for personal awareness and a vehicle for global change.
Join us to become a more educated and intentional traveler as you learn about new destinations, sustainable and regenerative travel, and community-based tourism. Industry professionals and those curious about a career in travel will also find value and purpose in our conversations.
We are thought leaders, action-takers, and heart-centered change-makers who inspire and create community. Join host Christine Winebrenner Irick for these soulful conversations with our global community of travelers exploring the heart, the mind, and the globe.
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Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor). Jessica Brooks (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing, production, and content writing by Carly Oduardo.
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Soul of Travel Episode 167 Transcript
Women’s travel, transformational travel, sustainable travel, women leaders in travel, social entrepreneurship
Christine: Welcome to the Soul of Travel podcast. I'm Christine Winebrenner Irick, the founder of Lotus Sojourns, a book lover, Yogi mom of three girls and your guide On this journey. We are here to discover why women who are seasoned travelers, industry professionals, and global community leaders fall in love with the people and places of this planet. Join me to explore how travel has inspired our guests to change the world. We seek to understand the driving force, unending curiosity and wanderlust that can best be described as the soul of Travel. Soul of Travel Podcast is a proud member of the Journey, woman Family, where we work to create powerful forums for women to share their wisdom and inspire meaningful change in travel. In each soulful conversation, you'll hear compelling travel stories alongside tales of what it takes to bring our creative vision to life as we're living life with purpose, chasing dreams and building businesses to make the world a better place. But the real treasure here is the story of the journey as we reflect on who we were, who we are, and who we're becoming. We are travelers, thought leaders and heart-centered change makers, and this is the Soul of Travel.
Welcome to Soul of Travel podcast. I'm Christine and I'm so excited to be here for this conversation today with Jessica Brooke, who is the founder of Eternal Landscapes, and she's someone I have been trying to track down for about two years, but as you'll hear, she's often somewhere in Mongolia. So it's been difficult, but I'm so excited to have you here today. So welcome to the podcast. Thank you. Well, as we get going, we will just introduce you and your company. One of the things that really drew me to you is seeing some of the intentionality around having a really small business being very ethics and value driven, combining that with a social enterprise in Mongolia and the way that you really invest in nature and in communities, especially in supporting women. So these are things that really I'm passionate about in the industry, and so when I get to speak with someone else who kind of speaks my tourism love language, I get really excited. So I'm going to turn it over to you, Jess, to just introduce yourself to our listeners.
Jessica: Well, thank you. So I'm Jess and I'm the co-founder of Eternal Landscapes Mongolia. And we're a Mongolian registered tour company that we established in 2010. And when I say we, that's myself and my business partner called ura, and we offer immersive experiences throughout Mongolia and that prioritize women's empowerment, inclusivity, community engagement, and we do that to create a lasting positive change throughout the communities where we work as well. We call it business with a social conscience. As you said, we're driven by a set of ethics and values, and I pride myself on our commitment to making a positive change in the country and to breaking down the typical cliches and stereotypes that Mongolia is sold on in tourism.
Christine: Yeah, thank you. That's such a great place to start, and we're going to dig into each of those elements a little bit more. But before we get there, I'd love to get to know a little bit more about you and how you found yourself in Mongolia. So I'm just curious if you've always been a traveler and this is something that's a part of your DNA, and then I would love to hear how you did land in Mongolian and find this as the place that you wanted to work to create an impact in the industry.
Jessica: Travel wasn't part of my upbringing. It wasn't part of my background, but I started traveling when I was in my early twenties. I actually, and I didn't have any particular destination I wanted to go to. I just knew that I didn't have a career plan in place and maybe I should just go and experience a bit more of the world before making a decision what I wanted to do. And after working in a few countries, I ended up in Greece and I worked in a small cafe bar connected to a local hotel in southwest Crete. And I was there for a few seasons and somebody who used to come out every year mentioned to me that maybe I should consider becoming a tour leader or a tour guide because I used to help people when they were coming to the cafe bar, they were asking for information on different walking route or say the ferry boat, things such as that.
And it's something that stayed with me, and I spoke to my mum and I said, okay, well let's see where it leads. You never know. And when I went for the interview, I didn't expect to get the job, but I did. And I then worked for that company for seven or eight years in different destinations and they were the ones who sent me to Mongolia in 2006. And I worked there for four summers and that company got sold and we all lost our jobs and I had to tell my team, I had a team of drivers, I had to tell them that I was no longer going to be there, but they would still find work. They worked in tourism. And that's when ura, who was my lead driver at the time, he said to me, well, why don't you start our own company? And my initial reaction is just, no, I'm not a natural business woman.
I don't have an academic background in tourism. I don't have any form of academic background really, and I don't have experience in business. So that was just, no. But then I thought about it, well, if you don't try, you don't know you. And so that was what led to us being establishing the business in 2010. I love the ocean. I absolutely love spending time by the ocean, and yet here I am, I've been in Mongolia since 2006, the second largest landlocked country in the world. But the reason I love the ocean is because of when you're sitting next to it and you look out on this seascape, especially on a stormy day, the power of that landscape or seascape, you get that as well in Mongolia because it's immense and the power of that landscape just being in it. And then the people, so the broad variety of people and how they make their life within that landscape, whether it's the urban landscape or whether it's the rural landscape, but also how that landscape has defined the people and their culture and how they continue to adapt to the challenges that they face within that urban or rural landscape as well.
And that's stayed with me. And I think that's what in a way motivated me to set up EL and to get it through the pandemic as well, actually.
Christine: Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And it's so interesting to have the awareness of that kind of allure to the ocean and the seascape and then the landscape, and it's kind of that, I mean we speak about it on the podcast a lot, but that awe and that infinite possibility, those I think are some commonalities between people that fall into tourism is kind of just a deep connection to that vastness and then also kind of trying to find your place in the vastness. And that seems like what we're doing as we're seeking as travelers and as people that end up finding themselves curating these types of experiences. So that really resonates with me. I also am a natural water lover and I'm here in the middle of Denver and Colorado, so
Jessica: You get being
Christine: Landlocked. I can understand, and there is vastness and awe here as well. So that is also relatable. Well, I know you kind of told us how you decided to start eternal landscapes. You had experience in Mongolia, you were working with Toru, and you thought, okay, we're going to try this thing. So many of us also who have fallen into the industry, you find yourself learning on the fly, understanding all of the things that you need to make a business work, all the things that you need on the backend, all the moving parts of a company doing it piece by piece. So I know that is such a exciting place to be and also can be a very overwhelming place to be once you realize how many cogs fit into this thing that you're building. So I'd love to maybe hear a little bit about what you learned through that process. And then I also want to talk about what you thought that you could do differently and what would set you apart from people who were already operating in Mongolia at the time?
Jessica: I think because neither of us had a business background, we just decided we could only do it the way we felt comfortable doing it. So I'm from a rural area here in the UK and tourists from the middle Gobi. And although both of us had tourism experience, we didn't have a big connection with. We hadn't either of us really been on tours ourselves and our rural background backgrounds meant that we didn't really have this big connection with people either. So we didn't really have a huge understanding of why people were driven to book tours. So I think in a way this helped us. We had no investment, we had very limited finances. So I call it, I say that we bootstrapped our way up. We just started because if you don't start, you don't know. And in Mongolian there is actually a proverb and it's basically if you are afraid, don't start.
But once you start, don't be afraid. And that's basically what we founded the business philosophy on. And I've always been very, we wanted to be honest and transparent. And so from the start, I've always said, and I still continue to say, we make mistakes. We are just dealing with humans, we're dealing with people and we believe in our team. So what we decided was we really, really struggled to find guides because when you're a new company, you don't get the volume of bookings to be able to afford to pay high value. And so we said, okay, well somebody took a chance in us, so somebody gave me the chance to become a tour leader, and I gave tour the chance to become a driver, so let's recreate that within our business. So that's where we decided let's give the opportunity to people that want to work in tourism and let's be open from the start.
So people who are choosing to travel with us, let's tell them these aren't the best guides in the business, but who decides who is the best guide? These are people who should be given the opportunity and we support them and we train them and we believe in them and all these, and this continues now all the experiences we offer, we create. So although people will email me and say, this is what I'm looking for, I have to make sure that the itinerary I design still supports the person who is working on that itinerary. So it works both ways and it's not just the person, it's the community where the itinerary is taking place. And I think it's because we didn't form the business based on profit. And we still, although we are profit making, we retain our small size because we don't try to be all things to all people.
What we try is that yes, our guests get a truly genuine experience in Mongolia, but every trip we run puts support back into our team and into our extended network and community, and we fully support our team and our community. So when their life changes as life does, circumstances occur, we will either change how we support if it's say, one of our partnership families, we'll look at ways we continue to work with them, even if it means changing an itinerary, changing the experience we offer. And if a member of our team, their life circumstances change, we'll look at ways we can continue to support them as well. How can we continue to employ them even if they can't actually work as a guide or a driver? And I think maybe because we've done that from the start, we both knew if we were going to work in business, which can be quite cutthroat, we had to be able to have a passion in it in a way. And I think that's why it developed the way it did and why it is still run in that way as well. You have to be able to run a business, you have to have a work ethic, and to have a work ethic, you have to believe in what you do. And I think that's basically what motivated us and continues to motivate us.
Christine: Yeah, thank you so much for sharing that. And I think part of what drew me to you initially is I could kind of sense that in the way you talked about your business and the things that you shared. And like I said, I kind of chased you around trying to figure out, well, who is this elusive woman here? And I'm like, I'm so curious about what she's creating. It feels, it just feels different. It felt different than the way I heard other people talking about traveling in Mongolia. And you can sense that genuine love of Mongolia and the sense of family and like you said, kind of really having a human-centric business. And I love hearing that you've really kept that as a value in decision making and letting that lead how your business functions. I think many of us are trying to do that now.
We see the power that tourism can hold and it really is in the place that we are. That's what everything is about. And I think, I hope that we're trying to shift that narrative that it starts there first and even our business is a guest of the place where we are for many of us because we're not originally from the place where our business is operating. And so we have to find that balance. And I know that responsibility that you hold as an operator is really important to you. And you're always looking at, okay, how can I expand my positive impact? How can I reduce my negative impact? How can we be more sustainable as an industry? So I would love to talk to you about some of those touch points that you have in your business, like nature, positive travel and responsible responsible photography and some of those things that you talk about, talk with your guests.
Jessica: Although I had never intended on spending this much time in Mongolia, even though it was never a country that I had on my sort of list of places to visit, but it is accepted me for who I am and it's welcomed me in. And I just believe that because in a way we have a stewardship for the country and for the culture and tourism, there are many different ways, there are many different forms, different ways to do tourism, many different forms of tourism. And I'm not saying that our way is the best way, but what I do try and say is that what we try is that our footprint is as positive as it can be on the community and in the environment where we work. And what I try is to encourage people who choose to travel with us, or if they choose not to travel with us, that's absolutely fine, but still maybe they connect with our philosophy.
And I just try that in our own small corner of the world. We just try to make it as positive an experience for everybody involved as can be. I really do believe in making it as equitable form of tourism as it can be. And that's not taken from, like I said, an academic background or anything. It's just taken from this belief. And so that's people, it's community, it's the area in which they live. And many other companies thankfully are doing the same as well. But all we can do is just do it from our own small perspective, how we work and where we work. And I find it deeply satisfying as well. When people do say to me, I really connected with your philosophy on responsible photography.
I think it's important. I think it's important that it's not just us who are the travelers, it's the people in the country as well who are at the receiving end of accepting travelers. They are people trying to make their daily life just like we are. They have the same stress, they have the same struggles, they have the same hardships. And what we can do when we're supporting them and working with them is do that, is support them and work with them rather than just sort of come in and impose on them. And that's what I try with our broader philosophy as well.
Christine: Yeah, I think that again, that's that sense that I could feel. And I think what resonated with me is that as I had traveled, I would feel those places that felt unbalanced or didn't feel, I felt very intrusive as a traveler or I felt like imposing. I didn't feel like a good guest. I didn't feel like I was being courteous, whether of my own choices or of the way an experience was created that I participated in because it was, I don't know, a million different ways, I might've landed someplace. But you notice that feeling. And for me, I just thought there has to be something different than this. And then I would notice experiences that felt equal or valuable or nourishing for all people involved. And at that time I didn't know what that was called. I just knew that one thing felt good and one thing felt bad, and so why not do the thing that feels good?
So probably much like you, it's like, okay, this is where I just want to start here and see what we can create. We have two choices or two experiences that we know about, so let's lean into this one, whatever it's called. And now that's maybe called community-based tourism or responsible tourism or ethical travel. And so I love that, I guess that just deep sense of connection. One of the things that I also really resonated with when I was reading about the work you do is how you are creating these responsible and ethical engagement community guides. And I think this is one of the places for me that has been the hardest is when you travel somewhere and you want to have this genuine sense of experience or witnessing, for example, with the reindeer herders or seeing the hunting with eagles. These are magical things to witness, but when you're bringing travelers, they want to see the thing they plan to see. And if you're trying to offer it in a genuine way, something might happen that gets in the way of that happening. So then those experiences kind of become performative and they become artificial experiences that were recreated or replicated. So I'd love to talk to you about how do you find that balance? How do you allow travelers to have that experience and protect the sacred nature of those parts of community that are actually them living their lives?
Jessica: That's a really, really good question. So when we started working in these communities, what we don't do is we don't work with any local agencies. So we would travel to these communities ourselves. That's ura and I, so take for instance, the Mongol, Kazak, Kegel hunters, they predominantly live in western Mongolia. So from the capital city to Western Mongolia is 1,700 kilometers one way. So we would drive that distance and we would spend time in the community and we would get to know different families and we would ask if they were interested in working in tourism, do they already work in tourism? Who do they work with? If they were interested in working in tourism, how would they like to be supported? And we did the same with the reindeer herds as well in all different provinces. So not just these particular ethnic groups but throughout the whole country.
And then we would look at ways then what itineraries we could do, create to support them. But what we also looked at was how they live their life. So what seasons are important to them, what do they do at different times of year? So we know as an example, now it's much more people know, but hunting with the eagles is only done in the winter months, but there's still a lot of companies that say, yes, you can come at any time of year and you can experience a hunt with the eagles. Well, that's not right. And the pressure that is putting the families under is immense because the families, same with the reindeer herders as with the eagle hunters, as with Mongolian herders, their focus is their livestock. That's their primary focus. It's the livestock which is giving them their way of life. And they don't have the time to turn around to tourism companies and say, no, but we don't do that at this time of year.
And a lot of companies just turn up, they still do that. They just turn up and say, okay, I've got a group of 10, please, can you provide tea in hospitality because that's in our itinerary? And I just thought, okay, if we can just provide a guide, like our online guide that just educates people in the best way to visit these communities and what the ethics behind it is. So to me that would, even if it only impacts one person, if only one person reads that guide, it still helps the communities where we're visiting as part of that, what we've set up is so we have a network of families, we always look at ways we support them. We are starting to put into process a way that we measure that impact as well. So I have a brilliant, now she's my sustainability advisor and she's putting those metrics in place that I didn't have before.
I know why we did it, but I would like to be able to provide the proof as well. And so we've got that. And just to me, it just felt like the right way to be able to visit these communities is making sure that there's an equal conversation on both sides. So yes, they want to benefit from tourism, they're herders, and their way of life has changed so much because of the climate emergency, because of the change in the temperatures, because of the change in the weather and tourism helps them, it provides them with a supplementary income so that say in the winter, because Mongolia suffers from what's called a zoo, which is a cyclical weather event. And often it means that the livestock can't access any grazing, so they have to be able to buy fodder, which is actually really expensive. So supplemental income from tourism benefits allows them to be able to put more support back into their livestock. And all of this helps towards the fact that a lot of herders are facing urban migration. So tourism can be really, really beneficial. But like I said, I felt it had to work both ways. And so by producing these guides, I was hoping to be able to show people what we felt was the better way to visit these communities. It just felt a more supportive form of tourism.
Christine: Yeah, thank you so much for walking us through that because I think again, it's not something we're always thinking about, especially as someone who is traveling and looking for these beautiful experiences, these once in a lifetime things, you don't always think about what shapes it and creates it and how that exchange is happening. And so I think it's so great to just draw up some guidelines and think about it and offer ways that you can see the benefits and where it's a mutual exchange. I really wanted to go from here to talking about the work that you do with female guides. This was something that had me very excited about the work that you do. And I think I read it 500 times. It was like works with all female guides and I was like, no, let's read that again. Maybe that's in this area or focuses on female guides. And I was like maybe focuses on, and I just couldn't buy into the fact that you really wanted to work with female guides. And I think because so rare in the industry and especially in certain countries to focus on that, I think again, it's shifting. But I was really excited to hear about it. So I want to talk more about why when you started your business, you initially set this goal to work with women in Mongolia. And then I want to get into talking about what has evolved out of that.
Jessica: Well, in our conversation, I mentioned the interview for my job as a tour leader and somebody took a chance on me in that interview and gave me what has turned into a phenomenal opportunity to become a tour leader and work in all the countries that I did prior to Mongolia. And when we set up el, we knew that drivers in Mongolia were male. There are very, very few female drivers. So we knew we would be employing male drivers and we wanted to provide a balance. Now, none of this, this is just values and beliefs that URA and I had. There was no sort of deep analysis about this. And we just decided, I said to ura, well, someone took a chance in me and someone took a chance in you and our drivers are all male, so let's balance that with female guides. And like I said, we struggled to find guides because we were new, we hadn't any tours booked, we didn't have any funds, we didn't have any investments, so we couldn't say, yes, we're going to give you this much.
And because it's very much a circuit of guides, the same guides with the experience and the knowledge work for say 10 or 12 companies and they're outstanding at what they do. But then how do you get into the tourism circuit if that's what you want to do? And tourism for women is actually provides a great opportunity. It provides not just skills, but if you ask our guides why they work in tourism, a lot of them, some of them are single mothers, some of them are teachers, some of them, they come from a variety of backgrounds. And what they say is some of them will say it's for the economic empowerment. Some will say it's for the sense of freedom. Some will say it's timeout for themselves. Some will say for the opportunity for the adventure. There's a whole range of reasons why they choose to do it.
And we love what's happened is the fact that we employ older male drivers. So in Mongolia there's very much a issue around toxic masculinity. And although tourism employs a wide range of men, now it's more focused on the younger men who have more economic opportunities, whereas the older men are struggling. But it's the older men that actually have the knowledge and the skills. So that's the area we focus on. And then our guides are younger and they tend to represent a more modern part of Mongolia. And like I said, it's balance and it works really, really well. And it's not something that we set out. It wasn't a let's change the lives of women in Mongolia, but actually we set up because winter is so long that, so we decided, well that's when we can bring the team together. And we started this informal training scheme and we've got a very high retention rate and it's just been a joy, an absolute joy to see these women who for whatever reason wanted the opportunity to work in tourism.
And they've gone on to achieve, I mean, fabulous things. They really have. Some of them are still working with us. Some have gone on to win scholarships. One worked with us while she was studying to be a gp, she's qualified as a GP and she's now in Sydney. And this is all through the power of tourism. So although there are a huge number of negative aspects to tourism, it can be done. And when it's done it can be very, very powerful. And it's something that this with our team, especially our female team, I am really immensely proud of what they've accomplished. And they've broken down, they've broken down sort of barriers themselves. Really, it's not that Mongolia is actually quite a very open society in a Mongolian gear. If anybody listening to this, they look at the photo of an interior of a Mongolian gear. There's two posts inside a Mongolian gear. Basically they provide structure and they represent a man and a woman. And the essence is that a family home, you need both the male in the female to provide sort of structure. And so there's always been a sense of equality in the country, but it's just modern life has made it very, very messy. And it's harder for women to find opportunities. And I think that's where we connect all that up. We try to,
Christine: Oh my goodness, thank you so much. That's such, I think again, just a kind of beautiful example of following intuition, just seeing what feels right and really just letting that love of where you are and the people just guide decisions. And like you said, you didn't know, it wasn't this huge plan to empower women in the country and give them the opportunity to break down cultural barriers. It was just like this feels right. And so that's the choice. And I think that's a really powerful way of looking at business. And also how you said that when you're doing this and it's something that you're learning about and is going to be challenging, if you don't love it, you're going to quit. And these choices all allow you to love what you're doing and be proud of what you're doing and to say, okay, we're going to keep going no matter what comes our way. We know this is working the way that we want it to work. And I just think that's so great. And I want to talk a little bit more, you mentioned that with the long winters that you found you could gather women and begin this informal training program and now you realize that there's an opportunity to formalize it, which you're beginning to do and creating a training center, I would love for you to talk about that and share that with our listeners and where it's going now and how you see it growing in the future.
Jessica: So based on the success of this very informal training program, which it was just myself, URA, and the team together, and as we retained more of our female members of our team, so they contributed to the training. So as we mentioned, winter in Mongolia is exceedingly long and tourism in Mongolia is centered around the summer, which in a way makes sense because winter can be minus 35 and it doesn't have, Mongolia is one of the largest countries in the world is got 3 million people living within it. 1.5 million of those live in the capital city and the rest is spread out throughout the country. There's a lack of infrastructure, so it doesn't really have in place infrastructure for winter tourism, although we decided that though families are living their lives all year round. So we would offer a 15% discount to try and encourage people to travel outside of peak season as a way of spreading financial support throughout the year.
But because we are very small, we're still a very small company, so our reach is quite limited. So we thought, well, how can we retain our team during the low season? So that's when we put together our informal training program and based on the success of what our female team have gone on to achieve and then working on sort of a report by UNDP on women in Mongolia and also women in tourism, I connected it up and said, wouldn't it be fantastic? So can't at the moment I've mentioned don't have the metrics in place, but we've got the results, we've got the proof of how successful this can be and has been. And so our idea is we own an area of land outside the lamb batar, which is the capital city. And what we want to do is create a tourism training center, but also it would be a community center whereby we would with projects that we already work with Mongolian projects, they would choose women from the community that they would send to us for this training program.
And the reason we want it to be in a physical center rather than just renting an office space in Allar is because it's rather than just training them to be guides, we want to train them in tourism, but also community and sustainability. So by actually having a center on the land we can put into place, we would develop community development within that area. So we would be teaching why is the center here? It's here because of the community. So the trainees would be going into the community and seeing how we had formed the center to work with the community. And then also sustainability. So we are looking for a large summer of money and it's not to run the center to establish it. And that's because we want the center, the building to be based on passive house principles. So we want to be able to be able to teach sustainability.
And the idea is in Mongolia, tourism is concentrated on certain provinces and what would be fabulous would be women who came through the training scheme, although they might be currently based in most of them have families or family relatives in other provinces. So we are giving them the opportunity to be able to go back to their home province, break out of the challenges that they face in Ola Batar, which aren't just physical. So it's not just the pollution in the winter, it's not just the congestion, but it's also the lack of job opportunities. So they can break away from that, go back to their home province and maybe they can set up their own gear camp, small community gear camp, run by their family that would enable them to still bring up their kids but also be independents have their own small business. And this is our vision. So we are in the process of looking for funding to set up the training center and what we're coming up against. So people are asking why that summer money and it's because what we want is low impact. And actually to build something that's low impact, you have to invest in it first. Once it's established, it will be.
Christine: Yeah, thank you for sharing that. And I think it's really interesting to look at what we can create, and again, how you're saying we could do this one way and it would be maybe a little easier, maybe a little more streamlined, maybe something that people have seen before and understand. But what you're wanting to do is put that intentionality behind it, bring it to communities, have it be more self-sustaining and look at what are the other legs it can have to create more impact. And so I think it's so hard when you are breaking molds to get people to join you. And I think, I mean I feel like this is me all the time and I've talked with other guests about it. It's like, okay, you could build your business in this box or you can build your business in this box. And I'm like, I want to build my business right between those two boxes and then nobody knows what to do with you. So it can be such a challenge when you're innovating and literally trying to read between the lines and figure out how to make it work in a way that maybe it doesn't work in this box, in this box, but right in the space in between is the thing that's best for who you're serving and who you want to work with. And yeah, I can recognize that there's a lot of struggle with that and it requires a lot of faith and sometimes faith in business don't always go hand in hand.
Jessica: No, that is such a beautiful sentiment that really, really is. I mean you can see that my hair is great and when I started el, I was a very strong brunette. So 10 years and the pandemic and I've gone, it is changed my hair color and it is, it's one of the most stressful things I've ever done. But I do have a belief and many, many times in the tourism industry, I've had people, I think that's one reason EL is still small as well because we haven't in a way people have said, well, yeah, but you don't do that and you don't do that. So because we don't fit, like you said, a particular box, people have almost discarded us as if to say, well, they won't be around long. But here we are, 2010 to 2024 and two years of the pandemic because Mongolia was closed for two years.
We got the team through, we got the unity of the team through. There's still a team as well. We got the families through, we still work with the same families. And I think now it's after the pandemic that I'm starting to have belief in what we do. I'm starting, and maybe that's why I've been brave enough to say to you, okay, yes, let's do the podcast because I'm starting to be brave enough to say, actually no, we should be proud of this. And maybe there is somebody out there who will connect with the way that we are doing things. No, it might not be the typical way or the way that makes maximum profits or the way that most tour operators are run, that's fine. But it's the way that gives us a passion for what we do. It is what motivates us or motivates tour. It motivates me to wake up in the morning and to carry on.
Christine: Yeah. Thank you so much. My is so filled by this conversation. Okay, well I have loved hearing all these different parts and pieces of your business, the passion and the inspiration. And I know one thing that you and I also connected on is running our businesses often by ourself or as a small team, you get very immersed in your own experiences and your own, the things that you're doing to keep your business afloat. And one thing that we have both realized is that we really need to learn from others to increase our impact and that we are both kind of drawn to other women owned companies, seeing what they're doing, looking at what they're adding that is adding value to communities they're working with or adding value to their employees, or there's all these things that other people are innovating in small ways that when we learn from one another, we can start to put them together in our own businesses to even create more impact.
And one of the things that we were talking about is we only hear about what we know about and we kind of tend to follow in that cycle and we'll get into a little bit of a bubble. And so we find ourselves just kind of doing the same thing within our own little bubble, but we can hear other people's perspectives and they're like, oh wait, this is the other thing that I was actually missing, but I was so caught in my own little space, I didn't know this was happening out here. So I'm wondering from you, what have you, as you've looked toward others for inspiration in your own business, how has that impacted your growth and what you want to achieve and how has it maybe pushed you to do things that maybe make you uncomfortable, like this podcast, which I'm so grateful for again, and then the support that you receive from other people once you immerse yourself in community. I'd just love to talk to you about what that experience has been like for you.
Jessica: I always tell my team, my female team, especially when they, maybe they're about to do a tour that they're not comfortable with because maybe it's a destination they haven't been to or maybe it's, I mean our small groups are very small. They're only a maximum of six. But still, there's something about the experience that's coming up that they're not comfortable, they're doubting themselves. And I always say to them, I believe in you. And I say, we sometimes have to do things that make us uncomfortable. And I'm now starting to do that myself. I'm starting to listen to what I tell them. And where I get that from is I'm an avid reader and one piece of business advice that was given to me apart. So I take inspiration from anything that I read. And the piece of business advice that I was given that's always stayed with me is you don't have to follow another business that's in tourism or travel.
You can take inspiration from any form of business just as long as you connect with the way that they run. And it might not be, you can adapt it to fit your business. And I think because I'm an avid reader, what I do is I spend time each day just looking and reading and that's where I get my ideas from. And often there are women and they might, as I've said, it's not connected with travel or tourism, but maybe it's a way, it's something, a philosophy they connect with or it's a belief they connect with or it's something they do in their daily life. And if I like it, I write it down and then I keep it and I keep coming back. So I, it's not a notebook, it's just a pile of paper, but that's what I call my sort of inspiration. And it's remarkable the talent that is out there, the talent in community, in sustainability, in travel, in tourism, in business, in all different forms of employment I guess. And that's where I look, I look at this, what other people other women take inspiration from, and then I take inspiration from that.
Christine: I love that so much. And also, and someday I'll just show it on the video. I have a wall of books here and I always reference it because I love books and I'll admit some of them I haven't read, and I think they just inspire me just being on the shelf and I know the knowledge is they're waiting for me. But also, like you said, hearing what other people are inspired by, whether it's related specifically to your business or not, can really help you kind of unlock what is important to you. And I think when you have a small values driven business, the parts of you that are nourished or the parts that give to your business, and so you actually need to spend a lot of time thinking about things that aren't your business in order to be successful in your business. And sometimes that's the fun part.
So I'll get stuck there for a while and then I'm like, oh wait, we were supposed to be bringing this to our business. Do that part again. And I can relate, I have this pile of sticky notes that used to be on my wall, but now it just sits on my computer and I will do the same thing. It's like I kind of just maybe lose momentum or something and you read those things, those little words or those things that really struck you at some point and they'll reignite whatever that is. And it allows you to just keep carrying on because what's at the heart of what you're doing and what you're creating and what you hope to achieve that heart is so important. And I know you and I also talked about that in this kind of process right now, you've been rewriting your mission and vision and values and just coming back to that first part of your business and writing stuff down and thinking about how to translate it. And I think all of those things come into that process and it's really great, I think to not just have a business that's like A plus B is C, and you're like A plus Q plus purple plus penguin is C. And it somehow works better almost. I think
Jessica: It works better. Drives people nuts though. Because if they go to say, well, what exactly do you do? You need a much broader description. And like you said, it doesn't fit in a box. So I've learned that that's not our fault, that's what I've learned over the years. It's just the way we knew it was our way. It doesn't make it the right way or the wrong way. It was our way and it was the only way we felt comfortable to do that. And it's something now that we are comfortable with after many, many rocky, rocky years and a very rocky road. But Mongolia is full of rocky roads. So really I kind of like the connection there.
Christine: Yeah. Well, and I think the other thing too is again, there's kind of a way that you would normally say things or present things. And I was at a women's business conference once and one of the ladies challenged us to introduce ourselves in a different way. Instead of saying what we do with, I'm Christine, I'm the host of Soul of Travel podcast. It would be like, my name is Christine. I'm really passionate about women feeling equal and valuable everywhere around the world. And I do that through my podcast, my travel company, all these other things that I do. And when you say it like that, then it makes sense because it is coming from the same place, especially if you know what that place is within yourself, which for me, I would say is the soul of travel is that place that we're coming from, that we've launched all of these other seemingly nonsensical, abstract parts of our business. They are unified under something like that. So for my listeners that maybe feel that same sense of between the boxes, that actually you probably do have the perfect space for you, you just need to identify it from that space energetically instead of a more formalized container.
Jessica: Absolutely. And you shape the shape to fit you as well. Absolutely. Okay. Just have faith. Have faith. If you have faith in what you are doing, you must have faith that it will be okay as well. Yes, you might have to adapt, but you can shift the shape, everything. If you look at nature, nothing stays the same in nature. And it's exactly the same in business. I mean, Mongolians call themselves agile and adaptable because, but they can't. They don't pre-plan. So trying to make an arrangement for six months is a disaster, but that agility and that adaptability and that flexibility makes doing business with them fabulous in a way because of the creativity that's there. And I think that can be brought into a business as well. And you can have that flexibility, the adapt, and it's okay. It's absolutely okay if in six months you have to adapt and you have to change. Somebody might say, no, you have to be on this fixed line. Well let them say that. That's fine. But if it's your business or project and you feel better with shape shifting, then I think that's the way forward myself. But that's only because I couldn't do anything linear.
Christine: Yeah, I mean I think it's so great, and I do think that's part of the disconnect is that so many people want you to be linear, whether that's your life path is to be linear, your business plan is to be linear, all these things. And there's, I think all the people that I think are really magical or the ones that can't even actually see that line or find that line. And we're out here really trying to do things in a way that feel in alignment with us. And it's a very uncomfortable place to be sometimes until, like you said, you recognize that that's actually your strength. And I think I look forward to seeing that be the other business model. It is like, here's this way, if this is the way that you learn, think, and function, and here's this way, if this is the way you learn, think, and function, and they both have a beautiful outcome. And again, that's just another maybe barrier that we're working to break down in the process of creating our own businesses.
Jessica: I absolutely love that.
Christine: Well, I can't believe, and we thought that this conversation, we wouldn't get through everything. And I think we might have, and we're at the end, which I'm a little sad about, but we have our rapid fire questions here to wrap this up. And then I'm going to really hope that my listeners are so inspired and reach out to learn more about the center that you're building and that maybe we can collaboratively and creatively find a way to help support that vision. I think it's really important not only in your work, but in the industry in general, to have something like that to look toward as a model for creating that kind of opportunity for communities in the future. So okay, shift gears, rapid fire ish questions. You said you're an avid reader, but what are you reading right now?
Jessica: I'm reading a book called The Flow, and the full title is the Flow Rivers Water and Wildness. And it's by a female author called Amy Jane Beer. And for anybody who reads, go and pick it up, it's a book based around nature and loss and rivers, and it's beautiful.
Christine: Thank you. That description reminds me a little bit of braiding sweet grass, just like maybe the essence of it. It feels similar. What is always in your suitcase or backpack when you travel?
Jessica: I have a Kindle. The Kindle goes with me, but I still have to have a physical book. And I am the person who, if I'm halfway through a book and I've got a bus journey, I still take a second book with me just in case anything happens. Because for me, a book is, it's not just a story, but it's an opportunity. If I end up in a cafe on my own, then you've got companionship. If you're in, I dunno, if you're unexpectedly stuck somewhere, then you've got a way of passing the time. And it is a conversation starter as well. And I think if I hadn't set up El, I would have become a librarian. You mentioned about your bookshelf exactly the same. I've got books here that I haven't read, and I look at them, but they give me energy, they give me, they're there. Books are just fabulous. They just really, really are. So books always, always, always. I have a book with me.
Christine: Yeah. Oh gosh, that could be a whole nother side conversation. But I'm remembering when I went to Thailand in the early two thousands and didn't have Kindles and things and my backpack had just an inappropriate amount of weight of books. And then I learned at that point, I didn't know there were all these places that you could as travelers sell books, swap books, exchange books. And at some point I was like, okay, I'll let these ones go and try to create a little more space in my backpack, but then picked up all these ones along the way as well. And I really was hesitant to turn to my Kindle, but it now comes with me as well as a book. Anywhere that I go to Sojourn is to travel somewhere as if you live there for a short while. Where would you still love to sojourn?
Jessica: Well, obviously Mongolia, but I thought about this and I decided anywhere but by public bus because I love taking a public bus. I love the community side of it. I love the fact that you have an insight into somebody's way of life. I like the landscape passing by outside the window, but if I was going to take the public bus, it would probably be, and it couldn't be Mongo, it would be somewhere coastal, because I love to see how people make their lives, their connection with the sea, how the sea or the ocean shapes people's lives, how it shapes communities. So that's where, and it doesn't matter any country where there is a coastline would be, I would be happy on a public bus just taking a bus to that community and then observing how they live their lives next to the sea.
Christine: Thank you. What a beautiful answer. That feels like a book in and of itself. So maybe someday in the future, what is something that you eat that immediately connects you to a place you've been
Jessica: Not eat, drink tea. Obviously I'm British, you proper tell from my accent. And in our family, we drink tea, we drink a lot of tea. And every country that I've been to, every country that I've lived in, there's always been a process or a ceremony around making tea. It might just be I'm putting the kettle on, let me make you a cup of tea. But it's there for celebrations, it's there for commiserations, it's there for upset. And it also helps break down cultural barriers. You might not be able to communicate in another language, but sharing tea with someone just breaks that barrier for a moment or two. And I think the hospitality and the welcome that surrounds tea as well, not necessarily the formal ceremony, but just drinking tea. That's what connects me with all my previous travel experiences. And of course in Mongolia, they drink endless amounts of tea as well. So I feel very comfortable there. So yes, it would be tea.
Christine: Oh, thank you. That reminds me of an episode I had with Sally in New Zealand and her company pivoted from tourism company to a tea company during the pandemic called Picker's Pocket. And yeah, I'll have to link that in the show notes for people and I'll make sure to share it with you. I think you would love that conversation. Who was a person that inspired or encouraged you to set out and explore the world? That
Jessica: Would be my mom. I was unexpectedly an only child and she always encouraged me to be comfortable in who I am and to be courageous and to be curious. And although traveling wasn't something that I had ever planned to do, it just sort of happened. Mum was always there saying, well try, just try. You don't know unless you try. And so yes, it would definitely. And she comes with me. She doesn't travel alone, but she comes with me and I love her in doable spirit. She's in her late seventies, but she would travel the world really if she could, as long as somebody was there to take her. And she continues to sort of inspire me as well.
Christine: Thank you. If you could take an adventure with one person, fictional or real, alive or past, who would it be?
Jessica: I decide for this one, Roger Deacon. So he was a UK nature writer and I love what he represented. I loved his love of spending time in nature. But he did that through swimming. And this was before wild swimming became popular. This was before, this was when it was just taking a skinny dip or a dip in a wild space that gave you joy. And I think to spend time with him on any form of adventure, that could be a local adventure, it could be an international adventure, would give me such a connection to the importance of spending time in nature and also the importance of the stewardship of nature as well. And also, but how much stillness and peace we can find in nature in travel, whether that's local or international.
Christine: Yeah, thank you. Well, the last question is as Soul of travel is a space for really recognizing and celebrating women in the industry, is there one woman that you would like to recognize here on the podcast?
Jessica: I would like slightly different but connected with books. So she is an author called Aubrey Manhart, and she has written a book about Mongolia, but about the change makers. So this is about people in Mongolia 21st century who are the activists. They are breaking the mold. And I like her representation of the country. The Mongolia is predominantly sold by tour operators as being a country little change since the way of ham, but it's so much more than that. It's this vibrant democracy. It's a country where, like I said, 1.5 million people live in the capital city and 1.5 million live in the countryside. They embrace change. They are very adaptable people, and tourism often just tries to pigeonhole them into these stereotypes. And this book, it embraces, I think anybody who travels to Mongolia should read this book before they come as way of getting a better understanding of Mongolia in the 21st century. And so, although it's not a travel book and she doesn't work in the travel sphere, that's who I would suggest.
Christine: Oh, thank you so much. I love it. I mean, I think that's a perfect fit to being between the boxes in our conversation and to honoring that essence of everything that you have already shared. So thank you so much, and thank you for being here. I have really, truly loved this conversation. I'm so glad that we finally were able to make it happen, and I can't wait to share the work that you're doing and to hear the response that you receive from really stepping up and sharing your business and your passion with me today.
Jessica: Well, thank you. Like I said, absolute pleasure. Absolutely. It really has been.
Christine: Thank
Jessica: You. Been like chatting with an old friend.
Christine: Thank you. I appreciate it so much.
Thank you for listening to Soul of Travel, presented by Journey Woman. I hope you enjoyed the journey. If you loved this conversation, I encourage you to subscribe and rate the podcast. Please share episodes that inspire you with others because this is how we extend the impact of this show. Learn more about each of my guests by reading our episode blogs, which are more than your average show notes. I think you'll love the connection. Find our episode blogs at www.souloftravelpodcast.com. I'm so proud of the way these conversations are bringing together people from around the world. If this sounds like your community, welcome, I'm so happy you are here. I am all about community and would love to connect. You can find me on Facebook at Soul of Travel podcast or follow me on Instagram, either at she Sojourns or at Soul of Travel podcast. Stay up to date by joining the Soul of Travel podcast mailing list. You'll also want to explore the Journey Woman community and its resources for women travelers over 50. I'd also like to share a quick thank you to my podcast producer and content magician, Carly Eduardo, CEO of Conte. I look forward to getting to know you and hopefully hear your story.
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