Episode 234 - Avery Hale Smith, Backroads
In this episode of Soul of Travel, Season 6: Women's Wisdom + Mindful Travel, presented by @journeywoman_original, Christine shares a soulful conversation with Avery Hale Smith, Chief Experience Officer at Backroads.
Born and raised in the Bay Area, Avery Hale Smith’s global consciousness and love of outdoor adventure was inspired by her family’s extensive travels and time spent in nature throughout her childhood. The daughter of Tom Hale, the Founder, President and CEO of the active travel company Backroads, Hale Smith developed a curiosity about the world at large—and the world of entrepreneurship—from an early age. These interests, combined with a passion for people and an innate sense of altruism, led her to start an organization distributing shoes to children and adults in developing nations at the age of 12. When she was 17, she was invited to speak at the United Nations and honored with Soroptimist International’s “Violet Richardson Award,” each recognizing her dedication to women’s empowerment and social activism through volunteer work.
Though she had discovered and fostered her passions for social advocacy and cultural engagement from a young age, a pivotal time for Hale Smith was in college, when she traveled through India for three months, studying globalization and sustainability. Even though she had been to 30 countries—most of those with Backroads—and found each travel experience to be one of a kind, it was her time in India that ignited a renewed sense of purpose and commitment to making the world a better place through international travel.
Hale Smith received a bachelor’s degree in Communications and Psychology from Wake Forest University, a uniquely ideal background for subsequent leadership roles in business development and customer experience at companies such as EVERFI and ClearPoint Strategy. While she’s charted her own path professionally—with nearly a decade of expertise in strategy consulting, sales, marketing and customer engagement, and a wealth of international travel and cultural experiences—she found her way back home to Backroads and the San Francisco Bay Area. In 2021 Hale Smith joined the company as Director of Sales and Guest Experience; in 2023, she was named Executive Vice President of the company, and in 2025 she was promoted to Chief Experience Officer—a role for which she was recognized as one of the “Top 50 Women Chief Experience Officers of 2025” by Women We Admire. Hale Smith looks forward to the future at Backroads, working alongside her father on a mission to open up a world of possibilities and experiences to as many people as possible through the joys of active travel. She was especially excited about the introduction of Women’s Adventures in 2023, a new collection of trips that she played a key role in bringing to launch and in 2025 she is leading the initiative to bring to market Backroads new 30s & 40s segment launching in June.
Hale Smith likes to spend her free time in the company of her husband Matt, her son Teddy, friends and family sampling diverse cuisines in the Bay Area food scene, hiking her favorite trails atop coastal bluffs, practicing Pilates, and of course, planning her next adventure.
Early Seeds of Wanderlust and a Desire to Give Back
Avery Hale Smith's life has been closely linked to travel from a young age. As the daughter of Tom Hale, the founder of Backroads, she was fortunate to experience many of the company's trips with her family. While she admits that as a child, she didn't fully grasp the incredible privilege of these experiences, they were undeniably "incredibly transformative."
However, one of her most pivotal early travel experiences wasn't a Backroads trip at all. During college, a study abroad program in India focusing on globalization and sustainability proved to be a profound turning point for her.
Avery described India as "an incredibly overwhelming place that is very different from the US," and the immersion into its culture, communities, and schools pushed her far outside her comfort zone. It was a whole new way of traveling; she was hooked!
These early encounters with different realities also ignited in Avery a desire to make a difference. At the young age of 12, inspired by photos her parents brought back from a Backroads trip to Peru, Avery was struck by the poverty she witnessed, particularly the children without adequate footwear.
"It was really staggering to me to see...the children, especially their feet, seeing just that they were, you know, calloused and dirty and they weren't wearing shoes," she recalls.
She had a simple idea: to collect shoes at a local community dance by having attendees bring a new or gently used pair, an idea that quickly "evolved and snowballed." Avery’s initiative gained traction, leading to partnerships with major brands like The North Face and Keen Footwear, enabling her to distribute shoes to communities worldwide. This early philanthropic endeavor showcased a burgeoning global consciousness and a proactive approach to addressing inequalities, themes that would continue to resonate throughout her career.
Travel and Leadership
While Avery didn't initially envision a career at Backroads, she shares that her independent professional experiences in sales, marketing, and customer success, primarily in Washington D.C., provided a strong foundation and paved the way for her current success at the company.
Witnessing the travel industry's decimation during 2020+ while working in the booming field of education technology, Avery felt a "sense of duty" and a "self-induced pressure" to contribute to the family business during its most challenging time. After a nine-month process of conversations with her father, she joined Backroads in February 2021.
She describes this period as an "incredible time to learn so much," as the company essentially had to completely rebuild in the wake of the pandemic's initial impact.
Avery shares that she quickly learned adaptability, resilience, and a deep understanding of the guest experience. As Chief Experience Officer, she now draws upon these insights to ensure Backroads continually evolves to meet the "ever-evolving needs and demands of our guests."
"The majority of our executive team is and has always been made up of women," Avery shares. This is by design; female leadership is the intended norm at Backroads. Christine and Avery discuss the power of this leadership design and its ability to make deep and impactful changes in the global tourism industry.
Travel: A Mirror to Our World and a Path to Connection
Their conversation explores how travel serves as a reflection of our world, highlighting both its beauty and its challenges. Avery's early experiences in India and Peru brought global disparities into sharp focus, demonstrating travel's power to broaden perspectives and foster empathy, an experience Christine shares as well.
Avery acknowledges that active travel, or traveling on "your own two feet or on two wheels" is an "ultimate minimal impact approach." She shares of Backroads’ formal commitment to fostering the positive impacts of travel through its Give Back program, which includes contributing to local nonprofits, investing in community-led tourism, and activating staff through volunteerism and partnerships with programs like World Bicycle Relief and Trust for Public Land.
"We're going to the most beautiful places in the world and, if we don't do our part to protect them, you know, we won't be able to go to them. So, you know, it impacts us, you know, financially too. It's not just a nice to have, it's a need to have."
Wellness Beyond Buzzwords
Christine and Avery also discuss wellness in travel, moving beyond superficial trends into the heart of curating holistic wellness through connection. No more "quick hits" like workout classes or spa treatments; for Avery and for Backroads, wellness is holistic, encompassing "physical wellbeing and mental and emotional and spiritual and all of the things."
"You can be in a beautiful place looking at a gorgeous view, but if there's no deeper connection, whether that's to the place itself, the people that you're traveling with, the locals that you're meeting in the region... you're not really getting that deeper, fuller experience,"
This connection is what truly sets transformative travel experiences apart and contributes to overall well-being, especially in an era where many report feeling increasingly lonely despite superficial digital connections.
Backroads is actively innovating to cater to evolving traveler needs. They are thrilled to launch their Women's Adventures!
These trips attract solo travelers, mothers and daughters, and groups of friends, all seeking the unique camaraderie and supportive environment that all-women travel can offer. Christine has always been a strong advocate for women's travel spaces, highlighting the importance of creating "spaces for connection and spaces that feel safe... for vulnerability and these meaningful connections."
Avery adds that the active nature of these trips allows women to "connect in a deeper way and at a much faster pace.”
This soulful conversion is a vibrant picture of what it can mean to be deeply attuned to the human element of the journey. Travel is far more than just visiting a place; it’s about fostering growth, understanding, connection, and a profound sense of well-being, both for the traveler and for the world they explore.
“Really getting out there in the most beautiful corners of the world, moving your body, learning about new things, tasting new things, immersing yourselves in new cultures with new people... That’s wellness in my mind.”
Soul of Travel Episode 234 At a Glance
In this conversation, Christine and Avery discuss:
· Early travel experiences and why she chose to start a non-profit to address some of the things that she noticed as a young traveler
· How travel has shaped her as a leader
· The ways in which travel is a reflection of our world
· Wellness beyond catchphrases and quick fixes
· Women’s Adventures and the 30’s-40’s trips launching this June at Backroads
Join Christine and Avery Hale Smith now for this soulful conversation.
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Related UN Sustainable Development Goals
Sustainable Development Goal #3: Ensure healthy lives and promote well-being for all at all ages.
Sustainable Development Goal #5: Achieve gender equality and empower all women and girls.
Sustainable Development Goal #8: Promote sustained, inclusive and sustainable economic growth, full and productive employment and decent work for all.
Sustainable Development Goal #9: Build resilient infrastructure, promote inclusive and sustainable industrialization and foster innovation.
Sustainable Development Goal #10: Reduce inequality within and among countries.
Sustainable Development Goal #11 Make cities and human settlements inclusive, safe, resilient and sustainable.
Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode
Learn more about Backroads and connect with Avery: https://backroads.com
Connect with Avery on your favorite social media network! Instagram / Facebook / LinkedIn
Excited to check out the new Backroads travel experiences? Check out Backroads 30s & 40s and Women’s Adventures.
Learn more and make a difference!
Trust for Public Land - https://www.tpl.org/
World Bicycle Relief - https://worldbicyclerelief.org/
Backroads Women's Adventures - https://www.backroads.com/why/traveler/womens-adventures
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Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of people making a positive impact in the tourism industry. In each episode, you’ll hear the stories of women who are industry professionals, seasoned travelers, and community leaders. Our expert guests represent social impact organizations, adventure-based community organizations, travel photography and videography, and entrepreneurs who know that travel is an opportunity for personal awareness and a vehicle for global change.
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Soul of Travel Episode 234 Transcript
Women’s travel, transformational travel, sustainable travel, social entrepreneurship
Christine: Welcome to Soul of Travel podcast. I'm your host, Christine, and today I'm very happy to be joined by Avery Hale Smith, who's the Chief Experience Officer at Back Roads. And we are going to just jump right into this conversation. So Avery, I'm gonna turn it over to you to introduce yourself and tell my listeners a little bit more about who you are.
Avery: Sure. Well, Christine, thank you so much for having me. I'm really happy to be here having this conversation with you. But, um, as you mentioned, my name is Avery Hale Smith. I'm the Chief Experience Officer at Back Roads, which is a luxury active travel company. Um, as the Chief Experience Officer, I work most closely with our sales and marketing people and culture and our finance teams, but work really with all departments across back roads alongside our executive team to think about, um, what we're providing out there, how our guests.
Experience back roads and the trips that we run and how we can constantly be improving and evolving to meet the needs of our guests.
Christine: Perfect. Thank you so much. Um, and we were talking in our prep call that I have a little bit of a longstanding or a distant connect. With back roads. So it was really fun for me to prepare for this interview. Um, when I started in the
Avery: I.
Christine: back in the late nineties, um, I was working for Special Expeditions, which later became Linblad Expeditions and they had, um, an adventure collection, which back roads was a part of.
And so I. Um, have the opportunity to meet your father. And like as I was researching and I saw his picture, I was reminded of kind of that time in my journey. And so it's really fun for me to kind of have this sort of full circle, circle moment,
Avery: Totally.
Christine: point in my journey as well.
Avery: Yeah. What a small world. I know when you shared that with me, I, I couldn't believe it, but, um, yeah, very excited to be here talking about, you know, shared passion for travel, shared love of travel, and, um, yeah, I can't get over that small world connection from so many years ago.
Christine: Yeah. And, and the adventure travel space really does feel like a small world and like a big family sometimes. So I'm really
Avery: Completely.
Christine: environment to have spent so much time in myself, um, for you. I know it really is a family, um, adventure though. And I would love to, to hear from you a little bit more about, travel. Has obviously been a part of your life, but for our listeners, can you just share a little bit more about what some of your early travel experiences looked like and how that began to began to shape who you are as a person, as a traveler, and as a leader Now?
Avery: Yeah, absolutely. So I guess just as a little bit of background for your listeners, my dad, Tom Hale, founded Back Roads, um, well before I was born. And, um, growing up I was really lucky to be able to take a lot of back road trips and travel a lot with my family, which. I think at the time, you know, as a young kid, I don't think you have the appreciation or perspective to really realize just how lucky I was or fortunate I was to be able to have those experiences.
But they were incredibly transformative. Um, I think, um, you know, it's hard to choose, you know, just a couple of the most transformative experiences. But, um, I'll start with one that is. Um, not back roads related. I think in college, um, studying in India, uh, about globalization and sustainability with one of my communications professors was incredibly transformative because if you, you know, if any of your listeners have ever traveled to India or if you have ever traveled to India, Christine, you know, it's an incredibly, um, overwhelming place that is very different from the US and it was, um, so eyeopening to.
Really immerse myself in the culture there and, um, visit so many different communities and learn about the people, about, um, the regions that we were visiting. We worked in schools and, um, that really pushed me outside of my comfort zone in a way that I hadn't before. Um. Uh, back roads experiences when I was younger are very, um, well supported.
You know, they, um, back roads leaders hold your hand from start to finish and take you through these incredibly, um, immersive experiences, but you're also staying at nice hotels and you are, I am eating nice meals and so India was a stark contrast to that. Um, but of the back roads experiences I've had, there's.
You know, too many to count in terms of ones that have transformed my perspective, I would say favorite experiences would include our active safari to South Africa and Botswana. That's a really special trip. Really unique in terms of the diversity of the activities that we do. Biking on the actual game reserves next to giraffes and elephants and riding bikes along the cape.
And, um, so, you know, that's just one example of the, of the. Transformative active travel or adventure tra adventure travel experiences that I've had that have really stuck with me. Um, but I've been able to take all of those experiences and it really helps to inform the job that I'm in today as Chief Experience Officer in really thinking about what are our guests looking for out there and how can we tailor what we're doing to meet the ever evolving needs and demands of our guests.
Christine: Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing that. I know also when you were younger, you started an organization that was distributing shoes to children and adults in developing nations. Can you tell me a little bit more about where you were ins, you know, got the inspiration to do that, and then also maybe because I believe you were pretty young when you did that, like what it was like to kind of. that out, how to connect the dots and really put this into action. 'cause I know my daughters, as we've traveled, and even just here in the us, they're very keen to see
Avery: Mm-hmm.
Christine: and they really want to contribute, but that's not something that they really know how to do. Or there's not a lot of people modeling
Avery: Yeah.
Christine: like to do something at that age.
And a lot of times people's visions are really discounted. And so I loved hearing this story about your own journey.
Avery: Yeah, definitely. Well, I mean, I think for anyone, it's really hard to know where to start, especially as a young child. But I do remember my parents returning from a backwards trip. I believe they had been in Peru and they were showing me photos of their trip and the villagers that they were, um, visiting in one of the communities.
And as a, I think I was, you know, 12 years old at the time. It was really. Um, staggering to me to see, uh, the poverty that was shown in these photos and the children, um, especially their feet, seeing just that they were, you know, calloused and dirty and they weren't wearing shoes, or if they were wearing shoes, they were these tire treads sandals.
And I think that was really shocking to me as a child of, you know, privilege and, and, you know, living a comfortable life. Um, in the Bay Area where I grew up and a lot of kids in my community. Would put on these, what we call rec dances. They're community dances. And I wanted to put one on, and I just thought, well, why don't I have everybody bring a pair of new or gently used shoes and then I can donate them to this community?
And it really took off from there. So it didn't start out as an idea to, I. You know, found a nonprofit organization, but just do something small to help this one village. And then from there it evolved and snowballed. And, um, I think maybe because of my young age, um, a lot of different organizations heard through word of mouth or the press or whatever it was about what I was doing.
And they. Would reach out to me. And so through that I was able to establish some really great partnerships with the North Face and with Keen Footwear to take advantage of their excess inventory and, um, get some donations of shoes to give to these different villages, um, across the world.
Christine: Yeah. Thank you so much for sharing and from listening. It is easy to see that kind of being a part of a. Global community was something that was really important to you early on. Did you know that you would eventually end up in the tourism world and even at back roads? Um, what did that part of your journey look like?
Avery: Yeah, I think the short answer would be no. I, I don't think, I thought, you know, for sure that I was going to be working at back roads when I was older. I think I always knew that it was something my dad would be super excited about or open to, but we never talked about it as if it was a sure thing. And I had my own interests and, um, things that I was pursuing professionally.
And when I graduated from college, I moved to Washington DC and I had a career there mostly in. Sales and marketing customer success. And I was pretty, you know, content, doing what I was doing, but always loved having the connection to back roads. And every time I would go on a trip or talk about it with my dad, I felt, you know, really energized.
Um, but I really also appreciated having my own professional experience separate from back roads. And then the pandemic happened and we were in the midst of COVID. And I was working in education technology at the time, and that was a booming business. Um, you know, everyone needed online learning solutions when COVID hit.
But at the same time, you know, simultaneously I was seeing what backwards was going through in the travel industry at large. That was just being decimated and I think I felt a sense of. Duty or not. I mean, obligation is the wrong word, because nobody was making me feel that way. It was a totally self-induced pressure I was putting on myself, but I was like, I, what am I doing here?
I'm not doing anything to help. And so I had some conversations with my dad about what joining Back Roads might look like and in what capacity, and you know, how can the skillset that I bring aligned with what the needs are at back roads? And so it was really like a nine month process of having these conversations and then of ultimately leaving my job and moving to the Bay Area.
Um, and I joined back Roads in February of 2021, so we were still really in the midst of the pandemic at that point. Um, but uh, yeah, it, I, it wasn't something that from a young age I thought, oh, for sure I'm going to work at back Roads.
Christine: Yeah, and I had thought about that too. Again, kind of knowing a, a little bit of the longstanding history, like what it might have been like to
Avery: I.
Christine: kind of this. Um, pioneering space in the industry, transition through all these different hurdles, but then to come up against the pandemic and like, I even think about my time at Linblad when we were trying to decide if we wanted to have a website and I'm, I'm sure there was like, you know, what does the social media mean to us?
And so like. There have been lots of different transitions and obstacles throughout the, you know, this period of time in the industry. But the pandemic was such, a hard hitting obstacle that I, I had wondered if that was a part of the influence that kind of shifted. I. you felt or what you wanted to do, you know, to as being a part of the company.
So it's very interesting to hear that that was also, you know, your wake up call, because I imagine strategic as we can be about all of these other things, there was no really strategizing ourselves out of that space in that particular moment.
Avery: Yeah, no, you're spot on. I mean, um, I think nobody anticipated that that moment would happen or that the pandemic would occur, and I think it rocked everybody in the travel industry. Um, and it was a really challenging time to join back roads, frankly. But I wouldn't, you know, looking back, I wouldn't do it any differently, um, if I could because it was an incredible time to learn so much.
I mean, you know, we really had to sort of. Almost rebuild back roads in a way, um, after, you know, uh, several months in a period of time of nobody really traveling. And so that was, um, a big learning opportunity. I worked really closely with our executive team and everyone on the executive team is incredible.
Many of them have. Have been around for decades and so being able to learn from those people as well as my dad and really see how we get through, through the most challenging time backwards has ever been through, um, it was an incredible opportunity.
Christine: Yeah. Thank you. Um, also, and this is the last time I'm. Gonna take myself back to the late nineties in this moment. But I really remember, um, in my early part of my career, in the adventure travel space, you know, in many rooms being the only woman, um, going to events, being the only woman in the spaces. And at that time I was very young as well.
It was very intimidating. I'm just curious for you what the role of female leadership looks like. Um. Maybe some of the evolution you've seen from afar or now in the position that you're in and, and what that looks like in back roads and your indus in this industry now.
Avery: Yeah, I mean, I think one of the great things about the travel industry is that there are lots of female leaders. Um, and leadership, um, not just at back roads, but throughout the travel industry at large, and especially at back roads and at back roads in particular, we've always had an abundance of female leadership.
So the majority of our executive team is and has always been made up of women, um, which I think is incredibly powerful and empowering and inspirational, um, to be able to work with such a great, um, and impressive and hardworking group of women every day. Um, so it's something that. When I like, take a step back and really think about it, it, it feels even more powerful.
But on a day-to-day basis, it just feels like, you know, that's how it's always been and that's how it should be. And um, it's a really great and incredible thing. So we try to celebrate our female leaders at back roads, um, and. I don't know how much you know about back roads leaders. There are trip leaders, but um, we have an incredible group of trip leaders who really help make the back roads trip experience what it is.
And that team is really, in my opinion, the secret sauce of back roads. And that team has always been led by a female, um, leader, which is really incredible. Um. Currently my colleague Lauren Elli leads that group. And, um, there's so many different examples of inspiring and incredible female leaders, but, um, it's very pervasive at back roads.
Christine: Yeah, and I, I do recall, um, from my time and my own travels, what those, those leaders that are on the ground traveling with you, how much they really shape a traveler's. Experience and how important and critical they are. And I was just speaking, um, at a conference to a, a few people that are day trip leaders, but this idea of you learn, everything you touch, everything you take home is, is interpreted through their eyes.
So I think, and maybe because you've said this, you understand that they're often such an overlooked and incredibly important member of the tourism
Avery: Yeah.
Christine: Um, like I said, they, they really have their hands on everything, and you will walk away with the most memorable experience or the most disappointing, depending on that.
And, and everything
Avery: Yeah.
Christine: learn and everything learn about a destination are funneled through them. So they're my eyes, just like the most profoundly important people in our industry.
Avery: Completely. Yeah. Yeah. They're the most critical, um, on back roads, trips for sure. But in the industry at large, definitely too. And I think, you know, we call our leaders leaders very intentionally because they're not just guides. They're not taking a passive role in the trip experience. They're not flag waving.
They are. Formulating the entire experience, end to end. Every single, um, thing that happens, every activity that occurs, every meal that's, um, that guests are enjoying and every connection that's made that, that leaders are really facilitating that. So it's, it's incredibly crucial.
Christine: Yeah. Well one of the things that I was very excited to talk to you about is the women's adventures that you guys have launched at Back Roads. Can we talk a little bit about those and maybe where they came from? From and what that looks like in the landscape of what you offer.
Avery: Definitely, yeah. This is something I'm super, personally passionate and excited about. So we launched our Women's Adventures, our first trips in 2024, and we've since seen the growth of our Women's Adventures segment grow by over a hundred percent. At this point, we're constantly adding new departures and new regions because we're seeing such huge demand from women travelers who want to.
Participate in these types of experience, experiences with other women. So it's been really powerful and exciting to see. I think, you know, one of the trends that we're seeing is that, um, there are a lot of different places women are wanting to travel to, but they're especially drawn to, I think the places that are one more far flung and diff more difficult to navigate on their own.
So we're adding departures in Morocco and Nepal and Bhutan, um, because we're seeing a big demand from women there as well as. Regions that have maybe a greater, um, spiritual or cultural element. Um, we're seeing huge demand for the Camino de Santiago in Spain, um, as well as Sedona. Um, and so, you know, interest is across the board, but it's really been incredible to see such huge demand overall from women travelers.
And it's. Solo women travelers, moms and daughters friends of a long time who have, you know, a difficult time finding ways to get together. And they do these trips every year type of thing. So, um, it's been great to see.
Christine: Yeah. And, um, anyone listening to the podcast knows obviously that I'm really passionate about creating travel spaces for women. But I do think that the idea of, um, creating spaces for connection and spaces that feel safe, and, and I don't mean in. And the idea that the travel itself isn't safe, but the community and the connection feel safe, I think is just really important.
And was the thing that when I started my company, that was kind of the, the crux of it all. Like I'm like, I don't really care what happens out here on the edges of things, but that container for connection and safety is really important for like vulnerability and these meaningful. Together because women are not only traveling together, but noticed just when we get together, we begin supporting each other through our life's journey.
Avery: Mm-hmm.
Christine: I just think that this space for women in travel is a really growing, because as women tap into that, they see something they've been missing
Avery: Yeah,
Christine: from one another in their daily
Avery: for sure.
Christine: travel piece is really important.
Avery: Completely. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I think the other thing we're seeing sort of connected to that is that we're taking it a step further by doing active travel and it's really allowed women to connect in a deeper way and in a, at a much faster pace than they might be able to otherwise with a different form of travel.
So, you know, when you are hiking the mountain together, you don't need to be an athlete. Um, to enjoy the experience or it's not a competitive experience. It's really women supporting other women of all different varying activity levels, um, or levels of athleticism. Enjoying the, the climb or the, the stroll together and connecting on a much deeper level, um, has been really special to see too.
Christine: Yeah. Um, it kind of leads me into another topic. That I wanted to talk to you about with, um, wellness and travel and what wellness looks like. Um, I would think that obviously that back roads would be kind of tied into wellness since there's so much active travel. But I loved how you were talking about, and it's kind of similar to what I was just saying, is, is like redefining what wellness really means and like what the parts and pieces are at its core and um. Because I'm di directly, um, referring to one of the blogs at Back Roads, I'm just going to read through some of the parts. It was, you were talking about movement being easy and not forced. Um, open spaces, no screens, new experiences, all senses being activated and like a, and a big emphasis on connection. Um, that just really resonated for me because I think, um. It just was a really beautiful examination of what wellness travel could be. So I wanted to kind of hear a little bit more about your aha and and why you think it's important to look at what that means and means to your travelers.
Avery: Yeah, definitely. Well, I mean, so I work very closely with our marketing team, and one of the things that is constantly on my mind is this theme or idea of wellness and how we capture that at back rows and kind of the storytelling behind it. Because just as a, as a woman, as a consumer, I'm constantly bombarded by this idea of wellness and it's really often marketed or portrayed as these quick hits, whether that's a workout class or a fad diet, or a, you know, a.
Spa treatment. And I think that that is such a surface level approach to wellness. And so when I think about wellness at back roads, it's really that holistic wellness and you can't achieve ultimate wellness or wellbeing, in my opinion, if you're not, um, addressing physical wellbeing and mental and emotional and spiritual and all of the things.
And I think a big part of that is connection. And so when you think about travel experiences, I think that what really sets. One travel experience apart from another is that level of connection. So you can be in a beautiful place looking at a gorgeous view, but if there's no deeper connection, whether that's to the place itself, the people that you're traveling with, the locals that you're meeting in the region.
Um, I think that you're not really getting that deeper, fuller experience and I think that connection really contributes to wellness overall, and it's something we really try to foster with all of our trips. Um, and I think people these days, I. You know, are lonely. You hear that all the time. Like you're constantly, um, uh, you know, whether, if you're constantly on social media, let's say, that's a really superficial connection with others.
And so really getting out there in the most beautiful corners of the world, moving your body. Learning about new things, tasting new things, immersing yourselves in new cultures with new people, um, that at the end of a six day trip, let's say, could be, you know, some of um, um, lifelong friends. 'cause that ha that does happen.
Um, that's wellness in my mind.
Christine: Yeah, and as you were speaking, I was just reminded of a, um, a session I just saw that was talking about the epidemic of loneliness and how that travel is really even moving outside of. Going somewhere. But it is this idea of community and connection. Like
Avery: Mm-hmm.
Christine: really are turning to this space for that.
Avery: Mm-hmm.
Christine: I wonder because when I started my company in 2019 and officially launched in 2020, so that was great timing in and of itself. But even then, like I was seeing this theme of disconnection and, and connection and I really again, wanted to. Intentionally focused on that, and I was telling people I was starting a transformational travel company or that I was starting like this community. But it, we used travel as our vehicle for exploring our own lives, but I was using all this language
Avery: Mm-hmm.
Christine: to people. So then I just stopped and I said, I have a women's mindful adventure travel company, and most people just would chop out the word mindful and carry on because
Avery: Sure.
Christine: to understand what I was doing. So for you, when you're looking at this from a marketing perspective, and again, things have changed a lot in five years, you were just saying that women are really. Gravitating towards these spiritual and cultural journeys. I think
Avery: Mm-hmm.
Christine: there's this sense of recognizing where we're at in this moment, but what does that look like when you're trying to communicate this to the world outside?
Who's looking at back roads, knows who you are with such a strong history, how do you start to blend these pieces together?
Avery: I think our approach is really just always a, approaching things from a place of authenticity. Um, we are speaking in a really real way about the experiences that we offer there. You know, we really do try to. Or, um, move away from, you know, marketing fluff, so to say. And I mean, this general idea of wellness could be thought of as maybe woowoo to some people, but it's, it's, I, you know, I so deeply mean it when I'm talking about these things and the way that our, I.
Back roads, experiences contribute to wellness and well the wellbeing of our guests. And so when you think about the marketing of it, it's really just telling that story in an authentic, direct way. Um, and we're still figuring out the, you know, exact right way to tell our story. And it's different when you're talking about women's adventures versus our family trips versus, you know, our, um, Dolce tempo trips, which have a slightly slower pace.
So, um, we always try to. Um, speak really directly and authentically and know our audience, um, which we've, we've come to know very well and our guests are incredibly vocal and give, um, the best feedback. Um, and we take that to heart and we read every piece, so that helps to inform our messaging and storytelling and marketing too.
Christine: Yeah. Um, well, I know another thing that's important, um, beyond, you know, really supporting. The wellness of your community is supporting the wellness of where people travel and that, I've had this conversation with other people that lead programs that are biking and hiking, but that it's kind of inherently responsible travel.
So when that language arrived on the scene, you know, that was something that was easy to. Um, stand up and be a part of. The other thing is that it is also very like immersive and connective because you're moving slowly through destinations in a way that you aren't, you know, by other modes of transportation.
Avery: Right.
Christine: kind of have those things already set up for you. But what have you done to really focus on responsible travel, to minimize your footprint and to kind of be able have an alignment with. The activities and the impact and what you wanna offer for your guests, as well as create in the world at large.
Avery: Yeah, absolutely. It's something that's really important to us and we know it's really important to our guests as it should be. And you spoke a little bit in the beginning about the fact that, um, active travel at its core is, you know, uh, in a forum or in a way responsible travel. And when you're, you know, traveling on your own two feet or on two wheels, it's.
Sort of the ultimate minimal impact approach to travel. That's not to say that we don't have guests, you know, flying all over and can, you know, there's a carbon footprint there for sure. But, um, it is that ultimate form of slower travel, I would say. And then beyond that, um, we take, um. Our impact on the communities that we visit very seriously.
And we have our give back program. So this is basically, um, something that has been around since, you know, we were founded in 1979. Not in a formal sense, but we've always contributed and give back to the community. Given back to the communities we visit, but we formalized it more recently with the Give back program where we're contributing donations to local nonprofits and investing in community led tourism.
Um, and activating our people through volunteerism. So, you know, we have leaders out there, um, in all of these regions that we're working in volunteering. And then in addition to that, we are giving donations. So we do this with a variety of different nonprofits, um, in the communities that we visit to. But one of the big ones.
Um, or a couple of the big ones that we partner with include world bicycle relief as well as trust for public land, and we support them in different ways. Um, but definitely, um, monetarily. And so there's a, there's a lot we're doing to, you know, think about how we as a travel company can lead the charge in responsible travel On the sustainability front, this is something that we're.
Really thinking about and thinking critically about how we can do more. We just transitioned all of our biking water bottles to um, more eco-friendly, uh, recyclable, um, bottles. And there's a lot of different initiatives that are going on right now, but it's top of mind. And we just hired our first impact coordinator last year, um, Julia, who has been remarkable in leading these efforts.
Christine: Um, yeah, the, my favorite titles to see in travel are, are yours, like Experience officer knowing that that's something that people are totally focusing on. And the chief, IM Impact officers because you can see I. How brands are building their identity and how they're changing and meeting the needs of the industry.
So whenever I see, you know, brands starting to hire those types of positions, it just gets me really excited. Probably in a dorky way of someone who's been in love with the industry for a really long time. But I, I just feel like, um, again, I like look at my early days of travel and thinking about corporate social responsibility
Avery: Mm-hmm.
Christine: it felt like. checking a box, but it wasn't necessarily integrated
Avery: Right?
Christine: the identity of brands, and now it is really
Avery: Mm-hmm.
Christine: that is, so important to the brand, but also as we know, just a critical decision to be made within the industry. So I, I get very
Avery: Completely.
Christine: I see those people come on board.
Avery: I do, I do too. It's been really great to delve into this further, um, both personally and as a company. Um, and it's really important. I mean, we're going to the most beautiful places in the world and, um, if we don't do our part to protect them, you know, we won't be able to go to them. So, you know, it, it, it impacts us, you know, financially too.
It's not just a nice to have, it's a need to have.
Christine: Yeah, I know early in my career, that was basically the one sentence that just stuck in my mind over and over when people would say like. What's sustainable travel or why do we need it? And I, you know, I got a master's with this complex title and people are like, what do you, what do you, what are you even trying to do?
I'm like, listen, you're going somewhere. It has to be there for you to enjoy it. And as, as a tour operator, as a destination,
Avery: Mm-hmm.
Christine: all need to be. that it's not an infinite resource. And I think
Avery: Mm-hmm.
Christine: was a lot easier to maybe look past that 25 years ago, although it wasn't for me
Avery: Mm-hmm.
Christine: there
Avery: Right. You were doing your part.
Christine: but um, but now, you know, it's just much more obvious. So
Avery: Yeah,
Christine: I just get so excited when this conversation can be at the forefront of, of discussions within the industry.
Avery: absolutely.
Christine: When you look at other changes, and this was another kind of geek out moment for me, my listener's gonna be like, wow, we're really learning a lot about Christine today.
But, um, when I saw that you are also launching, um, trips for, um, travelers in their thirties and forties. think particularly in this segment of the industry, um, that was a demographic that wasn't often included or thought about. We were really thinking about travelers 40 and over 50 and over 60 and
Avery: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Um, I'm just curious from you to hear from you a little bit about how that's maybe being approached differently and, and why you think that's important to include at this time.
Avery: For sure. Yeah. This is another segment of our trips that I'm excited about. It's the newest one for us. We just sort of soft launched these trips and they'll be available for sale in June. Um, and it's something we've been thinking about for a long time. You know, we have guests in their thirties and forties who have traveled with us forever.
Our classic. Trips for couples friends and solos attract guests of all ages, but the majority of guests are in their fifties and sixties, maybe you know, seventies too. And we really saw a gap in the market for guests in their thirties and forties. There are plenty of travel companies out there that are focused on millennial travelers, if you will, but there there're lower end trip.
Um, and we are seeing that there's this, first of all, a huge transfer of wealth going on out there right now. Guests in their thirties and forties and people in their thirties and forties are willing to spend their income and their money on experiential travel, maybe more so than baby boomers would have in the past.
And, um, there's not really a company out there that is doing high end or luxury active travel, um, for guests in their thirties and forties. And so we are, you know, dipping our toes in the water here and it's been. Incredible to see just since our soft launch, the demand that's poured in from guests, we, you know, have a coming soon page where you can indicate what trips you're most interested in, which itineraries you wanna be notified about.
And that's been a really great way to see like where, where do these guests want to go? And it's been a really healthy combination of both former guests. And new guests who have never traveled with back roads before. So that's been exciting and encouraging to see. Um, but we've also seen, one of the other reasons why we launched these trips is we've seen huge success at back roads with age segmented travel.
So the best example of this. Would be our family trips. Um, we have family trips for currently three different categories of travelers. It's families with teens and kids, families with older teens and twenties, and families with kids who are twenties and twenties and beyond. And those trips. Score incredibly well from a quality perspective.
And, um, we thought why not take the success of that? And you, um, create these trips for thirties and forties where there's nothing that's changing about the itinerary. It's just getting a group together of, um, people who share, who are at a similar stage of life.
Christine: Yeah, and I think that really speaks back to this idea of community and connection, right? Because you can have a great multi-generational experience. Um, I've been, again, as a trip leader, been someone in my mid twenties traveling with people primarily in their sixties and seventies,
Avery: Mm-hmm.
Christine: Like, I loved that because I learned so much from
Avery: Mm-hmm.
Christine: But at the same time, if people, if this idea of connection and like kind of reviving and um, like nourishing their soul is like this catalyst for travel. They're gonna really find their kindred spirits in those people that are having similar life experiences. So I think
Avery: Absolutely.
Christine: it's like connection and community.
This is just another way that this is taking shape.
Avery: Exactly. It's really just making sure that at backwards we have something for everyone, every kind of traveler, every age of traveler. And that's not to say that we won't still get guests in their thirties and forties and twenties on our classic trips for couples, friends and solos. We a hundred percent will, and we want to preserve, you know, the diversity of ages that we see on those trips too.
But we know that there's something special when you get a group together of. Um, guests who are at a similar life stage or a similar age. And so we're really excited to see what the feedback is on these trips. And, um, so far they've been received really well and it's exciting.
Christine: Yeah. Um, I love that. I, I, again, like I just couldn't speak more highly of those experiences. As a younger traveler, seeing the world through everybody's eyes, I'm sure
Avery: Mm-hmm.
Christine: were so lucky to have that, you know, growing up, being able to participate and also so humbling in some of those moments. I remember hiking somewhere in Alaska and thinking, oh, this trail's really gonna be hard for some people.
And then I was like, oh, who Some people, that one is me.
Avery: Right.
Christine: people that were much older than me, just like tearing up the side of the mountain
Avery: Oh my gosh. So true.
Christine: Yeah, and I just, I loved those experiences 'cause I think it was as important for me as it was for the person, you know, that was showing me up to,
Avery: Absolutely. Oh, completely. And you know, we talk about these trips for our guests in their thirties and forties, and a lot of people's reaction is, oh, well they must be harder because it's for younger people. And that's actually not the case at all. And our guests in their sixties and seventies. Are some of the most incredible athletes out there.
I mean, I just returned, um, in February from our biking trip in Vietnam and Cambodia, and we had two guests on there who are longtime back roads guests. This was actually their second time doing that trip specifically, and they've completed. More Ironmans than I can count. And um, you know, they were, they were beating everyone up the hill.
And age isn't necessarily always the best indicator of, you know, physical fitness necessarily, or even desire to do a hardcore ride or a hardcore hike. Um, so it'll be really interesting to see. If our guests within this younger demographic are looking for the same type of active experiences as our older guests, or if it differs, which I'm sure we'll learn over time, but, um, it's true.
Participating in travel experiences with guests of all different ages is incredibly empowering and, um, insightful and inspiring and, um, we really try to preserve that on all of our trips.
Christine: Yeah. And I guess again, kind of looking at tra travel, reflecting life, you know, we're really seeing in general people's perceptions of um, what and who you should be at a certain age changing. And I know I have joked with some of my friends is, you know. Looking at what age the Golden Girls were when they filmed that show and realizing that they were in like their late, mid to late forties and fifties. And that in my mind, when I was young watching that, I was sure they were in their seventies
Avery: Right, completely. It's such a good example.
Christine: yeah. And so I think we're really. Mirroring that and reflecting that shift and that I, I think the other thing that's really inspiring is that it allows people to have this vision of who they might be at that age and carry it forward.
And that this active, um, and adventure travel space allows, um, I think people just to carry those dreams like much further into their lives. And like you were saying, like for someone to still be dreaming about going to. You know, Italy in their nineties or wherever it might be, just that there's no cap. I
Avery: Yeah.
Christine: is something that is also really is another way that travel really offers a lot of opportunity for growth and inspiration of communities.
Avery: It's so true. Yeah. And you know, we, we have gotten guests that are in their nineties on back road trips. You know, it's not common, um, even guests in their eighties. But, um, we try to make sure that our itineraries really do appeal to such a wide audience, especially when it comes to age, and that we are flexible in the activity options that we're offering and the routes that we're offering and the support to that our leaders are giving out there to make sure that everyone can be accommodated.
It.
Christine: Yeah. Thank you so much. Um, well before we wrap. Up our time. I just wanna open it up if there's anything else that you would love to share or sometimes I love to ask guests, if there's one question you wish you were asked that you never get asked, that you wisdom, that you wanna impart upon our, our audience, I'd love to to give you that space.
Avery: Oh my goodness. That's a great question. I, I haven't really given that much thoughts, but, um, no, I think, I mean, this was an incredible conversation. I appreciate you taking the time to speak with me about our shared love of travel. I guess one question I wish I had been asked, I always feel very passionate about talking about the future of back roads and where we're going from here and, um, it's something we focus on a lot, you know, in my day-to-day job talking about what's next for back roads and what can we do better and how we can we continue to evolve.
So I guess the only thing I'd say there is as we think about the future of travel and the future of back roads. The main thing that's important to us is continuing to listen to our guests and what our guests want. I think the things that are top of mind right now in terms of priorities are, um, you know, our trips are incredible and we're constantly pushing that bar on Fity, but it's already very, very high.
And so right now I. One of our focus areas is actually how are we going to enhance the digital experience, which, um, you know, might not feel as important when it comes to the travel because the, the trip itself is the most critical component of a guest experience. But, you know, guests are expecting more, more and more these days when it comes to their digital interactions with back roads and companies in general.
So that's something that I'm focusing on a lot. Um, not sure how. Much of that or how interesting that is to your listeners or not, but it's top of mind for me every day and um, it's an interesting, um, I think it's just an interesting, going to be an interesting couple of years coming up in terms of navigating that space and, um, trying to make sure that we are staying ahead of the curve.
Christine: Yeah. Well, and I think it's really great and interesting too because it, like, it extends the customer journey, which for me, when I'm looking at how to make a travel experience more powerful, the, the longer you can keep people in that space of travel,
Avery: Mm-hmm.
Christine: impact I. If you're going to have in their
Avery: Mm-hmm.
Christine: and their wellbeing
Avery: Yeah.
Christine: even their sense of connection and belonging.
So when you add this digital element, all of a sudden you can front load their
Avery: Mm-hmm.
Christine: which is something that I have tried to do with my trips. And then also after travel, you have this relationship you've built and not just nurturing them to be another, you know, to be a return customer or client, but What travel offers them.
Avery: Right.
Christine: can create these touch points. So I, I would love to hear from you, is that something when you're looking at the overall customer journey, that you're really considering what digital assets can do to enhance that?
Avery: Yeah, completely. Yeah. And not only what digital assets can enhance that experience, but what are different people looking for, depending on a variety of characteristics. And age is one of them. So you know, if you are a guest in your seventies, you might expect a very different customer experience or interaction with back roads than say if you're 25.
Um, and we are trying, you know, we have guests that span all of those ages and more, and so how can we really cater to what each, each individual guest is looking for? Whether that is a full on paper catalog, which so many of our guests love, or it's a digital flip book of all of our trips. And, um, when we, when we think about something as simple as, you know, search functionality on our web and, you know, narrowing down from all the list of trips you could choose from what is right for you, that experience, um, looks a little bit different depending on your sort of, digital fluency, I guess I would say.
So yeah, we're thinking about it constantly and thinking about what really will address the needs of our guests out there, depending on a variety of factors.
Christine: Yeah. Thank you so much Again, like I feel like this is my total like out travel
Avery: Me too.
Christine: I. I'm really, really appreciating. I love the, yeah. The reciprocal energy. Um, before we end, I do have a few rapid fire questions to just kind of bring it back to a little bit of you in this conversation.
Um, the first question is, what are you reading right now?
Avery: Ooh. Um, well, this is, um, not, not, I, I don't know if this is embarrassing or not, but it's a beach read chick flick book that, uh, my book club just chose, which is every summer after. Um, and I haven't started it yet, but that's next up on my list.
Christine: Perfect. I mean, it's the right season for
Avery: Right. Getting ready for the summer.
Christine: yeah. I always feel like I start to think enough of this heavy books that I have been taking with me through the winter to find
Avery: exactly. Something lighter.
Christine: What is always in your suitcase or backpack when you travel?
Avery: Ooh. Um, probably my AirPods honestly. Um, I feel like I'm always, always take my AirPods with me everywhere. Um, and packing cubes, that's like my saving grace when it comes to packing for long or short trips. I always need everything to be in a packing cube.
Christine: Yeah, to sojourn, to me means to travel somewhere with the respect as if you live there. Um, where is someplace that you would still love to sojourn?
Avery: Oh, that's a good question. Um, I'll give two. I would really love to go to Tanzania. Um, I've, you know, never been, and it's on my bucket list as well as Japan.
Christine: Hmm. what is something you eat that immediately connects you to a place you've been?
Avery: Hmm. I mean, I think just pasta, any kind of pasta dish connects me to Italy and it's, you know, Italian is my favorite type of food and, um, my husband and I love to cook it together and, um, it's my favorite.
Christine: Yeah, I see you're, um, Pia behind
Avery: Right.
Christine: that's taking me back to, um, exploring that area with my daughter. So every time I'm. Peeking over your
Avery: Yep.
Christine: about it. Um, who was a person that inspired or encouraged you to set out to travel the world?
Avery: I would have to be my dad for sure. I mean, um, my, you know, he's my dad and my boss and like probably the most impactful on me professionally for sure. And definitely has ignited a love of travel.
Christine: Yeah. If you could take an adventure with one person, fictional or real, alive or past, who would it be? I.
Avery: Probably one of my grandparents, they've all passed now, so I would really love to be able to travel with 'em. Um, I think my, you know, my travel with them, even when they were living was pretty limited and I think I have a greater appreciation for the perspective that they bring now as an adult. So I would love to travel somewhere with them and, um, that would be pretty special.
Christine: Yeah. Um, and then the last question, as you know, uh, soul of Travel is for celebrating women in the tourism industry. Who is one woman that you would like to take a moment to recognize in this space today? I.
Avery: That's a great question. Um. Well, I would like to probably recognize, um, somebody internally, I would say, um, our, um, European General Manager, Stacy Lauch, who, um, I don't get to interact with enough because, um, we don't, I. Necessarily work together on a daily basis. But she's been around at back roads for an incredibly long time, decades.
Um, and I really admire her. But the reason I'm thinking about her is because she just, um, launched our new European headquarters in Ure in the Netherlands, and I've just been blown away by, um, her ability to. Take on that huge project in Stride, obviously with the help of a lot of other executives and people at back roads.
But, um, she has a fiery love of travel and is always going on some very, very cool and inspiring adventure. And I think, um, a lot of people should look up to her.
Christine: Thank you so much for, um, celebrating her and again, just thank you for such a fun conversation. I'm really glad that we were able to make the time to hear a little bit about your journey and learn more about back roads as well.
Avery: You too. Thank you so much, Christine. It was great chatting with you.
Christine: Thank you
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