Episode 227 - JoAnna Haugen, Rooted
In this episode of Soul of Travel, Season 6: Women's Wisdom + Mindful Travel, presented by @journeywoman_original, Christine shares a soulful conversation with JoAnna Haugen of Rooted as part of the Return to Soul of Travel Series.
JoAnna Haugen is an award-winning writer, speaker, consultant, and solutions advocate. She is also founder of Rooted, a solutions platform at the intersection of sustainable and regenerative tourism practices, social impact, and storytelling. Through Rooted, JoAnna works with destinations, travel brands, tour operators, media and travel writers, and tourism professionals from around the world to unlock the power of strategic storytelling and tourism communications that shine a light on responsible tourism and destination stewardship.
JoAnna’s work has been published in more than 60 print and online publications, including AFAR, Adventure.com, Fast Company, USA Today, BBC Travel, TravelAge West, and Mongabay. In 2021, Newsweek named JoAnna a winner in the storytelling category of its Future of Tourism awards. She’s also been nominated for three Bessie Awards: Collaboration of the Year in 2021 and Most Impactful Piece of Writing in 2021 and 2022, and has been recognized by the Inspire Global Media Awards as well.
The Complexity of Working in Sustainable Travel
The conversation begins with JoAnna reflecting on her journey since her last appearance on the podcast in May 2021. She acknowledges both progress and setbacks: "It feels like I have both grown professionally... but also that it hasn't gone necessarily in the directions I wanted it to go, or as far as I wanted it to go." As we know, the travel industry is an ever-shifting landscape, and there are always challenges in maintaining momentum and direction in purpose-driven work.
Christine and JoAnna share the challenges of implementing sustainable travel practices as travel industry professionals, storytellers, and travelers themselves. JoAnna emphasizes the need to embrace complexity rather than oversimplifying travel experiences. She shares a powerful insight from a recent conference: "We need to embrace complexity. We exoticize simplicity." This observation perfectly captures the tourism industry's tendency to present destinations as simple, consumable experiences rather than complex, living communities.
When addressing how to make sustainable choices more accessible, JoAnna advocates for "sustainability by default," where sustainable options become the easiest choice for travelers. She provides concrete examples:
Placing toiletries at the front desk instead of in the accommodations
Positioning vegetarian options at the front of buffet lines
Featuring sustainable choices prominently on menus
The Challenge of Walking the Talk
Both Christine and JoAnna share personal experiences of trying to align their travel practices with their values. Christine recounts attempting to travel through Europe without flying: "It was absolutely impossible... it had changed because of the post-COVID travel habits in Europe." JoAnna adds depth to this discussion by acknowledging how sustainability requirements keep expanding: "I was always anti-plastic... then, I realized the footprint of flying... then, it was, okay, Airbnbs are…”
There will always be something more we can do to make a positive and regenerative impact as we travel; it’s the nature of the progression of values in equity and sustainability. Making choices in the way we travel and how we speak about travel is the first step. While acknowledging the challenges, both Christine and JoAnna emphasize the importance of continuing to push for positive change, even when progress seems slow or difficult.
A key theme throughout the conversation is the importance of educating travelers about the realities of destinations. JoAnna argues that providing more context and complexity doesn't diminish the travel experience but rather enriches it: "We're not doing anybody any favors. We're setting up inappropriate expectations... we're not empowering travelers, quite frankly, to be positive change makers."
The conversation concludes with a powerful reminder about recognizing the behind-the-scenes contributors in the travel industry. JoAnna takes the opportunity to celebrate those who work outside the spotlight, specifically mentioning Tammy Fairweather and Ann Becker as examples of professionals who enable others to succeed while staying out of the limelight.
While sustainable travel requires embracing complexity, simple solutions do have an impact, and making these choices the default by design will go a long way in increasing traveler responsibility. To move forward, it will be important to highlight education and authentic storytelling as crucial components for meaningful travel experiences. This approach has the potential to help bridge the gap between travelers' good intentions and their actual ability to make widespread, community-supported, sustainable choices.
“We have kind of been trained to sacrifice for everybody else first. To show up for everybody else first. But if we don’t show up for ourselves, and really check in with ourselves and take that time to be aware and mindful of what we need and and why we’re still showing up the way we do, then how can we ever best serve?”
Soul of Travel Episode 227 At a Glance
In this conversation, Christine and JoAnna discuss:
· Connecting with our authentic selves and expressing that in our business
· Challenges with embodying our true travel values
· Exploring the ways in which barriers keep more travelers from being able to travel responsibly
· How we can make choosing responsible travel a more frictionless experience
· Getting ourselves outside of our comfort zones in our business
· Learning from other industries and finding ways to inspire travelers and professionals to seek awareness, insights, and new ways to travel
Join Christine and JoAnna Haugen now for this soulful conversation.
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Related UN Sustainable Development Goals
Sustainable Development Goal #5: Achieve gender equality and empower all women and girls.
Sustainable Development Goal #10: Reduce inequality within and among countries.
Sustainable Development Goal #11 Make cities and human settlements inclusive, safe, resilient and sustainable.
Sustainable Development Goal #16: Promote peaceful and inclusive societies for sustainable development, provide access to justice for all and build effective, accountable and inclusive institutions at all levels.
Sustainable Development Goal #17: Strengthen the means of implementation and revitalize the Global Partnership for Sustainable Development.
Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode
Learn more and connect with JoAnna: https://rootedstorytelling.com/.
Connect with JoAnna on your favorite social media network! Instagram / LinkedIn
Subscribe to Rooted’s newsletter here!
About the Soul Of Travel Podcast
Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of people making a positive impact in the tourism industry. In each episode, you’ll hear the stories of women who are industry professionals, seasoned travelers, and community leaders. Our expert guests represent social impact organizations, adventure-based community organizations, travel photography and videography, and entrepreneurs who know that travel is an opportunity for personal awareness and a vehicle for global change.
Join us to become a more educated and intentional traveler as you learn about new destinations, sustainable and regenerative travel, and community-based tourism. Industry professionals and those curious about a career in travel will also find value and purpose in our conversations.
We are thought leaders, action-takers, and heart-centered change-makers who inspire and create community. Join host Christine Winebrenner Irick for these soulful conversations with our global community of travelers exploring the heart, the mind, and the globe.
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Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor). GUEST NAME (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing, production, and content writing by Carly Oduardo.
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Soul of Travel Episode 227 Transcript
Women’s travel, transformational travel, sustainable travel, social entrepreneurship
Christine: Welcome to Soul of Travel podcast. I'm very excited to be kicking off a special series here. It's a Return to Soul of Travel. So I'm speaking with past guests and we're gonna reconnect with them and hear a little bit about their journey since the last time they've been here.
So we're beginning that series with Joanna Haugen, who is the founder of Rooted and um. One of my very favorite people to connect with in the industry. So this is always super special for me to have you here. Um, for those of you listening, if you wanna hear more about her and kind of her origin story with Rooted, I'm gonna direct you back to episode 22, which seems so long ago.
Um, we shared that back in May of 2021. I'm so happy to have you here today to, uh, bring another conversation here to this space.
Joanna: it's so wonderful to be here with you again, Christine. 2021 Seems like both yesterday and ages ago, so here we are.
Christine: Yeah. Yeah. I, I feel like if you asked me what was happening in 2021 at this point, I couldn't tell you. I could probably tell you what was happening in 1994 better, like, it was such a, a blur. But, um, yeah, I would love to just kind of begin our conversation with, uh, reflecting on. That space between then and now with what we can remember.
Um, but if you wanna share anything that, for you and your business and your journey that feels really valuable to share with our listeners, maybe things you've learned, um, successes you wanna celebrate, or anything along.
Joanna: Yeah, it seems like a long time ago since we chatted. And, uh, reflecting on my own journey over that time, um, it feels like I have both grown professionally. My business has grown professionally, um, but also that it hasn't gone. Necessarily in the directions I wanted it to go, or as far as I wanted it to go.
I've been reflecting actually on the things that I still very much want to do and that, you know, kind of got put on the back burner and now we're months and years down the line. And so I've been actually thinking a lot about the, the direction of my business and, um, I am proud of the relationships that I've made over the years.
I'm excited by some of the work that I've done. Um, but one of the things that I've realized is a challenge in the tourism industry, and I imagine it's true in any industry, is that it can begin to feel really stagnant when we stay in just this space, just our silo with the same people, the same ideas, the same conversations.
And so one of the things that I've been, I've always done, but I've been making more of a concerted effort to do, is to be in other spaces, to read widely across genres, to listen to podcasts, um, that are touching on issues that are kind of tangential to tourism, whether that's curiosity or museum curation or agriculture, you know, these kinds of things.
And I've been, um, I've been attending vets that are not tourism specific as well. And that's been, that's been also really rejuvenating actually for me, um, to just have conversations with people who are thinking about important ideas, but not in the space that we are always inhabiting.
Christine: Yeah, I love that idea and. I think , we can learn so much about tourism when you kind of lay other perspectives on top of it. And I agree, like I feel like you get very comfortable and so it's really easy to stay there. But then when. When we're both kind of, I guess, disruptors, if you will, you need to look where to see where the disruption is coming from, and I think it's very helpful to have those other perspectives.
Um, a few years ago I participated in something called the Vital Voices Fellowship, which was a fellowship for a year with, I think it was around 60 women, and they were from all around the world. I think there was. 30 some countries, um, a lot of women from different African countries, a lot of different types of business.
But the through line was that they were all, um, working to create impact and social impact founded. And I felt like that was so valuable because I was learning from all these other business owners and their challenges and ideas, but also learning like, like you said, like there was people working in agriculture, there was people working in gender equity, there was people working in all these different areas, and the overlap and the way we could support each other was really, really valuable.
Um, so I, I think that's a great lesson for people to. It's hard when we don't have a lot of time, but I think it's a great way to actually make the most of our time.
Joanna: Yeah. And I think that the ideas that surface from conversations and people who are working in. Similar, but different spaces. We have so much that we can learn from other sectors, other disruptors, thinkers, creators in other spaces. So yeah, absolutely valuable. I love the idea of, you know, this group of women who are, you know, spanning social impact across the world, across different spaces.
I, I think we need to. Give ourselves permission to be in more of those spaces because we feel, you know, we have to do the work, we have to stay in our space. We have to stay in our lane. And I think that's, I, I think that does this more harm than good, actually. Yeah,
Christine: I think the other thing was really valuable is the reflection on my business from people who don't know my business. So, you know, it was, it was so helpful because also they would get fired up about it in a way that maybe people that know businesses similar. And I was working with Lotus Sojourns, which is my, my travel company.
In that container. Um, you know, so people would be like, wow, I haven't heard of a, like social impact and gender equity focused travel company before. That sounds incredible. Whereas I know several people, you know, who have those businesses. So it was really reaffirming and just kind of great to feel that reflected back on me.
But then for also for them to be able to. Ask questions because they didn't already know the answers or didn't think they know the answers. Um, that that was a really powerful process too. So I think for people. Starting out in their business or wanting to maybe grow in a different direction. That kind of a space is really, really powerful.
Um, I think this leads really well into one of the things you and I were talking about is kind of balancing purpose and energy and how we determine where to put our energy in our business and kind of also balancing that with having a very heart led business in a time that feels. Where our footing is really being taken out from underneath us.
I think like all of those are pieces that we're struggling with you and I, but collectively, many of us are struggling with that, so I'd love to kind of dig into that.
Joanna: Yeah. I feel like with each passing day, for me at least, I, ask myself if where I'm putting my energy is the best place, if I am making or still making the impact I hope to have on this world. I often. Oh, I probably spend too much of my time thinking about this idea that, you know, in 2021 when we had our last conversation, there was a lot of conversation in our space about building back better.
And here we are today where tourism is like accelerating at this in absolutely insane rate and we're dealing with over tourism in Antarctica and, and I just, uh. I asked myself, you know, what, what happened to build back better? What happened to breaking down the system that was harming people, harming environments, and um, you know, rebuilding one that was more equitable, accessible, sustainable, all of these things instead of, you know, still focusing on all the old KPIs.
And so I do ask myself like, did I not speak loud enough? Did I not? Do enough. Am I still doing enough? Do I still belong here? And I have to still have hope because if I didn't have hope, there would be no reason for me to still show up. And certainly I have had a few moments where I've been like, I don't know.
Is this the day where I throw it all in? And there have been moments where I've questioned whether it was still worth my time and energy showing up. And then there are people or a conversation or something that happens that says to me, no, you're still supposed to be here. So I'm still showing up because I do have hope.
I have to have hope for our ecosystem that we work in. For the world that we live in, for the conversations that we still have, the gatherings we still inhabit. Uh, and, but it is, I feel like every day, especially, um, with all that's going on politically and the climate and all this, that it is hard to know where to place our energy and to know if it's still worth putting our energy in a place where it sometimes feels like.
It's not worth it. It's hard. It's hard to be a small business owner right now. It's hard to be leading with empathy. It's hard to care some days, but we have kids coming up behind us who need us to still show up. We have people who aren't in a place of privilege who need us to show up, and so as long as I'm able to.
I'm committed to showing up.
Christine: Yeah. Thank you. I and I, I think it's really important, and this will be a perfect segue into the next part of our conversation, but I think it's really important to be honest about that feeling too, because. I think so many of us get buried under that moment where you really don't know if it's worth it and it is hard.
You and I both work alone in our business most of the time. Um. To just keep fighting when it feels like a fight. Right. Um, and I feel like recently, um, I, I just went to a retreat where we were kind of talking about service, the idea of service through suffering or sacrifice versus service through joy.
And I was like, aha. I feel like when I'm carrying this big, huge sword, I'm buying right into this kind of idea of service through suffering, or I'm contributing to. That energetic space versus through joy and not meaning that like service through joy means I'm always joyful and everything is easy and joyous, but that the joy comes from my alignment in what I'm doing and what I wanna create for who I wanna serve.
So just like what you've said is that touch point of this is. Who I'm here for and why I am doing it. And that even though the action is hard, like changes it to something that fills your cup up instead of something that empties it. Um, and so I really keep trying to bring myself to that reframe and my other, and like.
Picture in my mind is like putting the sword down and picking up light and like trying to, because that's what I want there to be in the world, you know? And I feel like if I'm my like, I guess feminist warrior self, like she really wants that sword. She really wants to like be done with this stuff already.
But I, I guess internally I'm realizing how much that's not healthy to me or anybody else. Um, so I, I think that this is something that's really important to talk about and to support each other through and to have like lifelines for PE with people who believe in what you do.
Joanna: Mm-hmm.
Christine: I know for you, like if you ever texted me and you're like, I think this is it, this is the last day, I would just be like, I will always stand beside you and behind you.
And yet, like I believe in your voice and your vision, and then maybe that's enough for you to be like, okay, today I am gonna sit down, but tomorrow I can move forward. So I think these are all really important things in our, in our businesses and in our lives.
Joanna: Yeah. You know, and it makes me think of that saying, when we fly to put your own mask on first before you help other people. And I feel like honestly as women as especially, we have kind of been trained to. Sacrifice for everybody else first to show up, for everybody else first. But if we don't show up for ourselves and really check in with ourselves and take that time to be aware and mindful of what we need and, and why we're still showing up the way we do, then how can we ever best serve?
And be present for all those people in the organizations that, that we want to be here for.
Christine: Yeah.
Joanna: it's,
Christine: Um, and. In this own, in this thread as well. Like for instance, we're recording this conversation in March. My original intention was to have this air basically next week and have a quick turnaround and jump into the series. And I'm feeling really burnout right now, and I've been having some issues with migraines and things that just need me to sit still.
And so I had to say, okay, what? How do I give myself space and still kind of. Create momentum. And so I'm, I'm doing some replays, but hopefully with some fun introductions from our listeners and their perspectives. So like I can both take a breath and ha be of service. And so I think. It was really hard to give myself that permission, is really what I'm saying.
Like it felt impossible and yet, like once I decided it was done and it was easy. Um, so I think, like you said this, this idea, especially as women, that we just can't like take our foot off the gas for a minute or everything slides away, um, is. It is very hard to live with, and I do think in some ways it's true, and yet if we have nothing left to give, it's done anyway.
So like we have to do that.
Joanna: yeah. I, I would love to reflect on one other thing with that too is I feel. Like we are under so much pressure to keep showing up constantly and consistently because of algorithms too. And I mean it's, it's a lot of pressure on women to show up and be present all the time. But then we have these other outside forces, namely technology and these algorithms that are like, well, if you don't, you know, consistently post at 10:00 AM on Instagram every day, well we're just gonna.
I don't even know all the terminology, but essentially just like not show your stuff to anybody and then when you come back, it takes a long, long time to show up because I mean, one of the key facets of what we are told about how to run a successful business is to show up consistently and you know, in the same way at the same time.
So the people can rely on you. And you know, you had asked me about. Any changes with my business. I went from publishing two articles a month and I stepped back to doing one a month, and then I, you know, late last year in 2024, I was like, I just need a break to, to just take a look at what I'm doing and see if it's even what I still wanna do.
You know, all this that we've been talking about. So I, I like didn't publish new articles. I didn't. Do the same amount of posting on social media or whatever, and it, I mean, it hurts. Like I lost subscribers, I lost followers. Nobody's seeing my content. It's taking me forever to come back. And I'm like, there's pressure from ourselves.
First and foremost, there's pressure from society on us as women, and then unfortunately there is pressure on us from. The never ending noise from technology and, um, to be a creator, to have a small business being everywhere all the time consistently is just not sustainable.
Christine: Yeah. Um, okay. So the next bucket of conversation I had for us is social media and like auten, like balancing authenticity with duty, which is great 'cause it's kind of what we were, we were talking about here and. You know, for instance, I, I really enjoy following you on LinkedIn because I admire your presence there and I appreciate the conversations and the way you show up.
Um, I think social media can be an incredible tool for education and connection. Um, but it also can be a place that fosters distrust and distance. You know, can distance people. Um, and then in the travel industry there's like this other layer of complexity because if you're marketing anything, you have to like be the best and the shiniest and show the best parts of the destination because you're literally trying to sell the thing or sell yourself.
Um, and then there's like this catch 22 because this is what traditional media models and marketing want you to do. People will discover the truth, right? They, they're gonna get to the destination and see the overt tourism, or they're going to see how climate is impacting the destination. They're going to see all these different aspects of the truth.
We didn't tell them to get them there in the first place or about ourselves, which then like. Deepens the distrust and this like takes people out of reality or puts them in reality. I don't know exactly which one is happening, but I would love to talk to you about kind of what you wrestle with in this idea of how to show up, when to show up, which we kind of talked about a little bit already, and how to really create more equitable content that is aligned with. What we want to create in the world. And yeah, let's kind of see where this goes. I know you're like, whoa, that's a
Joanna: not a, not a heavy question at all, Christine. Um, uh, yes, yes. And more yes to everything you just said there. I, you know, I mean, that's really part of what's at the heart of my work is the importance of not. Turning places into backdrops and not commodifying people as just this nice thing that, that our visitors bump into and the importance of taking the time to create connections and, and let serendipity happen and all these things.
Um, I get it. There's this catch 22 of tourism marketing. But I feel like, uh, we're not doing anybody any favors. We're setting up inappropriate expectations. We're, um, not giving people the full truth. We're not powering travelers, quite frankly, to be positive change makers when they travel. If we are just like, yeah, go on holiday.
Lay on the beach. Have a great time. This is your beautiful sunny place, and people end up. Frustrated and, and not getting the experience they think they're going to have when they, if we tell them there is actually a water shortage issue here, you can actually contribute to like being a change maker and not contributing to that.
You could pick up garbage on the beach. You could participate in things so that you do become a better global citizen and you know. We, we know more and more people all the time believe in climate change. We know people realize that we are living in a very complicated and messy world, and tourism is this incredible vehicle that we can use to engage people when they are visiting somewhere new in these issues.
So instead of shying away from it, I actually see it as a huge opportunity to bring people into conversation. And do what is, you know, what I call or what I've, um, gone through training, uh, known as complicating the narrative and really being willing to grapple in complexity. Um, I was at an event this weekend, atactually, we, there was conversation about, um, the need to disrupt the status quo.
And it was not a tourism event. It was a different kind of event, but. We are talking about the need to disrupt the status quo and make systemic changes in parts of society that are broken. And the speaker said, um, we need to embrace complexity. We exoticize simplicity. And it is absolutely true that, you know, we make it grossly romantic to like be walking through the world and through a two dimensional world as a traveler.
I mean, we're setting people up to become irresponsible, irresponsible people when they travel, but we don't communicate with them in a meaningful way. We're, we're, we are not empowering people to be better, you know, stewards of the land. And so I see it not as, um, a way to disrupt somebody's holiday or, you know, take away their dream.
But honestly, I think more people, and again, studies show this. People care, they want to do something, or at the very least they want to know, um, you know, what little things can I do, um, or can I incorporate when I travel? So, you know, showing up authentically, I think means really letting all of us be our authentic selves, and that includes the travelers who maybe wanna be more than just this character.
Christine: Yeah. Um, I'm trying to go back through everything you just said. I knew this is always hard for you and I, 'cause we get through, um, like so many ideas in one paragraph. So now I'm like, where do I go next? Um, yeah, I, I just think the, the idea of the complexity is really important and. It to me feels, and this is what I always felt like and grappled with as a young traveler, is that I felt the complexity, but I didn't have the tools to communicate it.
And, um, I don't know if we had talked about this in the past, but, um, Dr. Anu Terrana's book was one of those, when I read it, I was like, here's the words. I always needed to explain these experiences I was having when I was traveling that didn't feel right and I was experiencing it anyway. I just wasn't able to process and understand so many of our travelers who, who think they're out there having this two dimensional experience.
If, if that's how we wanna kind of depict this.
Joanna: Yeah.
Christine: The other stuff is coming in and. They don't know what to do with it. And so I think, like you said, it's not fair. Also, it's not fair to expect, like this feels like a big sentence. It's not fair to expect that I can go somewhere to have this holiday without acknowledging anything else that's happening where I am.
It is such a place of privilege to be that. Assumptive about the experience you get to have. Um, and for me, I just, I hated when I would be put in that place where someone would be telling me to have this kind of superficial sur surface flowery experience. And I would just be like this to me. It's just not okay.
I can't look the other way. And I know that's very much who I am as a person. Um, so that can be super challenging anyway, but I just, it just, it just felt so wrong for me. And so I think there's more travelers like that out there than we know, and it really is this idea of education and, and just giving them the tools for being able to say.
I experienced an uncomfortable power dynamic while I was traveling. Like for me, that was the thing. I was like, oh, that is what I was seeing all the time. And it was breaking my heart, but I didn't know what to say and I would try to communicate that and people would just be very confused. And I think we've really grown as a society to have some of these deeper conversations, but I think they need to keep moving into tourism because.
Tourism is the place where humans connect with one another and it's like the best place to have these conversations.
Joanna: Absolutely agree with you. I, I admit there are two things I think are important is one, travelers don't know what they don't know. So if we who do know, whether that be destinations, tour operators, whoever on the industry side, media, um, choose to gate, keep that information essentially and not share it, how can we ever expect travelers to know, you know, we might think, oh, well, that, that will put a, a damper on their holiday, or, that's not really tourism.
Um, although, I mean, tourism is injected into all parts of society, quite frankly, so it, it is all relevant. Um, but travelers don't know what they don't know. We can't, we can't expect them to know without saying something. And along those lines, number two is we have the language now because I agree with you, I have definitely in my early days of travel, um.
Um, there are things I look back on that I am very, I would say I'm ashamed, uh, that I participated in that I unknowingly like was in a very inappropriate, uh, environment or whatever, but I didn't have the language. We have that language now. Power dynamics, white saviorism, commodification. We have these words.
And we have a responsibility to use them. If we know them, we need to use them, and we need to equip travelers with that information so that then the travelers do know what it is. And what to do about it, how to reflect upon it, um, and again, how to react in a way that no longer harms the environment that no longer hurts, the people that they interact with when they travel.
I love, uh, Dr. Terrana's book. I think it's a fantastic tool. I know it was written for students, but I think honestly it should be required reading for anybody in the tourism industry and quite frankly, anybody who's traveling. Um, it is essential reading in my mind because it gives people the language.
For something that we have not had the language for before,
Christine: Yeah. Um, okay, so I'm trying to decide which one's the chicken and the egg here, but I'm gonna start with, um, embodying kind of what we believe in and how difficult that is. And then maybe after that we'll look at how do we make it less difficult. Um, and I know for me one of these things, um. So if my value is gender equity, when I travel, how do I make that happen?
And I remember when I went to Switzerland a few years ago, I was like, how easy would this be for me to, to do this thing that I believe in, that I'm telling people to do? Right? Um, so when I was looking for a hotel to stay at in Zurich, I googled like women owned hotels or, um, I, I was just trying to see.
Where I could get and support this and crazily enough, and I don't expect that this would happen everywhere, but I found a chain of hotels that actually started with a guest house for women, where eventually one floor of the guest house. Um, was made available to women who were victims of domestic violence.
That eventually evolved into a program where they were training women to work in the hospitality industry, and then they opened several other properties. I was like, absolutely, this is 1000% aligned with my values as a traveler, this is where I want my money to go. Again, like I said, is this gonna happen every time I travel?
This was M magic. This was pure magic showing me, you know, what could be possible. It was very hard to do that. Um, I know for you, you recently moved and you had an overland move because this was aligned with your values. You were also kind of trying to play in this space of. Can I do what I'm saying I want to do?
And similarly, when it didn't work a few years ago, I was traveling with my daughters. It was supposed to be for a full year. It ended up being for about four or five months, and my thought had been once I land in Europe and I was going to London for a conference, then I didn't want to fly again until I left Europe to go to Egypt. It was absolutely impossible.
Joanna: Mm-hmm.
Christine: And believe me, I tried, I even contacted Eurorail Rail was expensive. It was sold out, it was impossible, uh, without an ex, a huge budget. And, you know, a few years ago that would've been very easy, but the, it had changed because of the post covid travel habits in Europe and all these things.
And. A multitude of other things happened over that trip that really showed me some of the, the ways that it is hard to put this into action. So I would love to kind of talk about embodying our values as travelers. I.
Joanna: Yeah, it is not easy. Um, and, and I think for me, at least the longer I work and travel, the more my values are developed or solidified. Um, you know, for, you know, I was always like anti plastic. Okay. Anti plastic. I can do that. Well, then it was like, I realized the footprint of flying, okay, that, that gets a little more challenging.
Then it was like, okay, Airbnbs are bad. And it's like, oh, okay. Add that on top. And, and you know, it's so many things that are ingrained in our society that are just not good and which is why sustainable travel is not the default because our lives are not. Sustainable by default. Plastic is all over the place in the grocery store.
And like you said, you know, taking the train is not simple. Um, not cheap, not easy at all. I struggle all the time when I travel. Um, I mean, right now I, um, the, I'm, I'm going to be traveling in August. To Costa Rica to go to a conference, but I took a long time to decide if I was going to do that, because I won't just go to Costa Rica for three days.
I was like, okay, what else can I tack onto that? What kind of research can I do? What else can, who can I meet while I'm there, while I'm on? That side of the Atlantic Ocean, can I, you know, take any short flights and do any other kind of work while I'm over there? And this is actually how I ended up in India for three weeks last year.
It started out with like a four day conference and I just kept like tacking things on. But quite frankly, if I am going to sit here and, you know, say that I value sustainable tourism and that I believe we need to build this by default, that I need to try to embody that as well as I can in my life. It is not always possible.
Um, we did go over land this summer. Uh, my partner and I moved from Tunisia in North Africa to Bucharest, Romania. We took a boat over the Mediterranean. Uh, it's an overnight boat, and then we spent six weeks traveling by train through, um, you know, mainland Europe, uh, to our new home. We have two, we had two cats that we are traveling with and staying in hotels was just not going to be an option.
We needed space. Um, we had dietary requirements, so Airbnb was gonna have to be the option. Um, because even trying to find other sort of a accommodations that would be suitable for us was just not going to work. So I was. Disappointed by the fact that we had to do that. I was happy we were able to do some things.
Um, but for me, what I thought was most important on this journey is the acknowledgement that it is a journey. And so, you know, I shared that with, on my social media accounts through Rooted as myself just saying, Hey, I'm an imperfect. Person living in a very imperfect world, doing my best. And here's what I did, here's what I learned.
Here's where I'd like to do better next time. Um, because I, again, going back to what we were just talking about with authenticity is I am an imperfect human and pretending that I am 100% living, the, the words that I say all the time is definitely. Not true. And so I think we need to be forgiving with each other.
I think we need to support each other when we can, and I think we need to do a much better job talking about the journey and the challenges of this. Because if we don't talk about the challenges, then people and companies don't realize they need to do a better job to show up and stand up and, and make it easier for, first of all, people who want to do these things.
If we want to do it and we're struggling, imagine how. Challenging it is for, again, the travelers don't know what they don't know. Um, so I think that, that the authenticity is important, um, to, to catalyze change, to challenge ourselves and to share that journey, um, across the industry with our followers, with our friends, and, and, and to think about it ourselves.
Christine: Yeah. What a beautiful awareness, or I guess a way of acknowledging that we can't always get it right and, and the reason we can't is not always our fault. I, I know I. Judge myself. It's like you walk into the only store in the village you happen to be going through and everything's in a plastic bottle, right?
And I'm like, oh my gosh, this, I am so heartbroken. And yet I am not the one who purchased the goods for this store. I am thirsty. I do need to drink something. Um, I have to make that choice. And I feel like when I make the one choice and buy the one water bottle. That's plastic. Everything I've done before has been erased, which isn't true, but it is. It's the way that I am holding myself up to a standard that isn't ideal. And so I also imagine. Some people never start for failure. Fear of the failure, right? Because there is gonna be failure along the way. And like you said, it's a such a great way of examining this, is that it is a journey and we're, we're all moving through these things.
Um, and the next thing that I wanted to talk to you about that you and I kind of hit on as we prepared for this conversation is how do we make it frictionless? Like we had, you had said, if it isn't easy, who will do it? Like. Like you were just saying, like the people that want this are, are feeling the struggle.
The people who don't even know they want it or maybe don't want it badly enough are not going to make those choices. Like, how do we examine and find these gaps? How do we advocate for the change? Like, I know these are all huge questions, but like, what would this process look like? would we start this dialogue as travelers, as industry professionals to, to make these changes?
Joanna: Well, I mean, this is why I'm a big advocate for sustainability by default, where the choice that is easiest and most natural to make is the sustainable option. Um. I'm not sure if you've had her on your show, but Mena Nicolo is the founder of Behavior Smart, and she focuses on, um, human psychology and behavior and works specifically with this, with destinations on how to make sustainability the default option in tourism.
So, I mean, this includes things like. You know, when we remove the toiletries in hotel rooms, uh, we put them at the front desk and we instead put a little sign up that says, if you want these come, you know, come ask. We have them. People, most people, like a very large majority of people, will not ask for them.
The reason why people use them is because they are available. Um, you know, and the same thing is true with the buffet line. If you center the vegetarian options at the front. People are going to use or they're going to choose the vegetarian options. If you put the vegetarian options at the top of the menu, they're more likely to choose those than the ones at the bottom.
This is just, it's simple human psychology that humans will take the path of least resistance. And this is, uh, why I often say that one of the things that is a huge problem in tourism is that when people. Or when? When companies say that their climate action plan or their sustainability plan is to create awareness, that's not enough because the knowledge, behavior gap is a real thing.
People can know that they shouldn't eat meat or they should take the train or you know, whatever. Option. They know what they should do, but being able to take the action is often more difficult, more expensive, has a lot more friction. It is not the easy default option. So it is on the tourism industry, I believe.
F to create product services experiences that are sustainable by default, that are simply frictionless. Um, now I say that, but what I really believe needs to happen is that we need to create products, services, experiences in society. That are sustainable by default, because again, tourism does not live in a silo.
It is integrated in society, and we know that creating a great, sustainable, accessible place for people to live then then rolls into being a great, accessible, sustainable place for people to visit. So, you know, going back to your question of how that's how we do it. We make sustainability the default, how do we as.
You know, people interested in doing this in tourism. I mean, we talk to destinations, we tell, uh, tour operators that this is what we want, but the truth is that we need to be advocates in our own communities to ensure that, you know, public transportation is affordable, that it is accessible, that it is running on time, that it is clean and safe.
So that people will default to using it versus driving a car. Um, and, and by extension, then that becomes the option that travelers want to use. So, I mean, I, it we need to just be good, responsible citizens who, who are mindful of the, our fellow humans, of our communities, of the climate, and, um, advocate for those things in our daily lives.
And it will naturally roll over into tourism. We need it from the industry too, but we also need it from society in general.
Christine: Yeah. Um, as you were speaking about that, I was kind of. Envisioning like this idea of this giant kind of container of water with all of these different contaminants, and you take the beak like one droplet out of it to examine it. So that's like tourism is this way that we're examining it, but it. In the whole water.
And so we can't really blame the drop that's in tourism for the whole water. And like you were saying, if the whole water is clean, then by default the tourism, tourism is as well. And that is also, that's kind of why I think tourism is such a magical, magical, it's just my favorite word. It maybe isn't magical at all.
Um, but such a powerful. Tool for creating this change is because it, it does intersect in so many ways. Um, it gives us perspectives, but, but when it comes down to it as travelers, we are only. Visiting, like you said, a place that exists outside of us. And so if it exists in a more inclusive and ethical and in, you know, is addressing climate and all these things, travel inherently becomes what we want it to be.
So it's a greater systemic issue that we're looking at across the globe, which then puts us both back in like our fetal position on the floor because. We realize the magnitude of what we really want for the world. Um, I The next, and perhaps last thing here, one of the things we've talked about in making something frictionless, um, is really like, is both looking for a way for taking action and then also.
Serving and educating people who are not looking for this information. And you touched on this in the beginning, that like you and I. Have both had this moment where we're realizing we're sitting in this space that feels comfortable surrounded by people taking aligned actions and we think everything's going great, and we're like, look at what we're creating.
And it's like you're in the conference center and you're in our little conference session, but if you like walked across the conference center and went into a different room, you realize that we haven't scratched the surface, which is maybe again, a back on the. Floor in the fetal position, uh, situation.
But like how do we give the ahas to the people who need the ahas? And I think you and I have also been in the situation where we are trying to put the education out there. And conference directors or communities or organizations are like, no, our people aren't asking for this. And we're saying they're not asking for it because they don't know that they want it.
So how? How do we get this aha to the people who need the ahas and not those of us who are like, yeah, like we already had the AHA and we're here for it all day long.
Joanna: Um, well, I think this is where the power of cross sector and cross industry collaboration and co-creation is really important. Uh. You know, you talk about being in this conference room where we're all patting each other on the back for the great things that we're doing. And, um, you know, I, I would put a little asterisk on that and say, you know, that's maybe not totally what we need to be doing.
Um, but I think that we all need to be breaking out of our silo and having these conversations in other spaces, it is. It is, um, it's no longer surprising to me. It was once surprising to me when you would have, when I would have conversations with family, friends, other groups of people not involved with tourism and just, I mean, mention anything, uh, related to the work that we do.
And they're like, wait, what? You mean there's something other than Airbnb? You mean there's something other than booking.com? You mean I have a choice other than flying? You know, why wouldn't I buy the plastic bottle? We, again, we are so isolated, um, in our spaces that I, I, I don't even think that we need to break out of the silo as tourism people, but just good, knowledgeable global citizens who are initiating conversations, showing up in spaces with people with diverse backgrounds, different, uh, professional backgrounds.
And we have, um. And you know, demonstrating acting, showing being the change we want to be in the world when it comes to travel, but just as importantly, being open and listening and asking questions and learning from people who are in other professional spaces, because you and I might know a lot about what it means to be a responsible.
Traveler or you know, how to look for these choices. But I can't say that I know everything about being like a responsible, uh, you know, architect or being a responsible like fashion designer or, you know, I, I read widely. I know some of these things, but. There is a world of knowledge out there that I don't know, and so, you know, how can we do that is show up, be our most responsible, best stewards of tourism, and be open to learning from those people who are great stewards of their own spaces as well.
Christine: Yeah, I love that. And it feels like a really great action item because many people that listen to this podcast. Cast, our tourism professionals would be to just take one of your curiosities as a human and. Explore that outside of the industry. And I was thinking right before you were saying, I don't, you know, I don't have expertise here and here.
I actually spent a year working for a company that was helping other businesses become lead certified. So that was working in in buildings. And then I have a cousin that is a designer and she's really working within her company to try to figure out how to have more sustainable and ethical production of clothing.
So like. I do hear all these things and I, I forget sometimes to apply that to, to this, you know, my professional space. But I think also in a way to kind of fill our cup, like to entertain these other curiosities we have in our life and go to a be a meeting about sustainable architecture and building construction like. It might give you some new vitality that you can also direct into the work you're doing now. And I think as humans we also really need that, um, that way to nurture and nourish and spark creativity and feed that curiosity. And so I think for those of you listening. This is a really great challenge and I would love to hear back from you if you try this.
If you just get curious about maybe sustainable food production or whatever it is that, that you are, have a curiosity about, like, actually, like you said, go find a conference or a webinar or a book and just see how that applies to the work that you're already doing.
Joanna: Yeah, talk to, talk to the people who are doing it. You know, if you're interested in sustainable, you know, wineries. Ask if you can spend a day job shadowing. I mean, what greater education we, you know, as travelers, we should be curious. So explore those things, um, both at home and when you travel.
It's an amazing opportunity to learn and become, you know, more thoughtful people. I love that challenge. Yeah.
Christine: Yeah. Well, thank you. Our time has flown by and I hope our listeners don't feel like they just drank from a fire hose, but I always feel a little bit like that in the best way when you and I have conversations. 'cause I'm just like, that's. That's so interesting. That's so interesting. Um, and I have to always go back and reflect a little.
Um, so I appreciate you always, um, creating that space for me. Um, before we end our conversation, we have some rapid fire questions, which we can touch on. I know you did these a long time ago, but I'm sure none of
Joanna: I actually don't even remember them, so I'm really curious to see what you have to ask here.
Christine: Yeah. Okay. So the first is, what are you reading right now?
Joanna: Oh, I am reading like three books. Um, but I'm, one of them is called 4 3 2, 1 by Paul Esther, which is, uh, uh, four different stories of, uh, boy growing up. Um, another one, I wish I could remember the title. It's like bananas, beaches, and something else. And it's a feminist perspective of colonialism in the tourism industry.
Christine: Wow.
Joanna: Yeah.
Christine: I love it. Well, you'll have to
Joanna: I'll, I'll send you the title because I, I can't remember, it was kind of a long title, but it's really interesting. Uh, dive into that.
Christine: Thank you. Um, what is always in your suitcase or backpack when you travel?
Joanna: Uh, reusable water bottle, re reusable coffee mug. Um, and uh, actually I have a little set of like bamboo silverware or colory. I, I basically just carry everything so nobody has to gimme anything ever when I travel somewhere.
Christine: Um, I, I get into that point too, and then I'm like, okay, maybe we don't literally need to carry everywhere.
Joanna: Oh, I try to use, I, you know, I try to use it as a learning opportunity though. Somebody said to me once, you know, I don't take my mug because a lot of places say they won't refill the mug. And I said, but if enough people ask, maybe they'll change their policy. So I keep asking.
Christine: Yeah. Yeah. Um, okay. To sojourn, to me means to travel somewhere with the respect as if you live there. Um, where would you still love to sojourn?
Joanna: Oh, um, I, I, well, I now live, I, I am living back in Eastern Europe again, and there are so many places here where I would love to. Um, just slow travel. Uh, so honestly, there are a lot of long trails. There's a new one called the Vitri in Sylvania that goes across Romania and I, I wanna slow travel and, and sojourn in my own country, uh, there, I don't have to go far, actually.
Christine: Yeah, and I feel like walking those long distance trails are such a. A unique way to be really immersed. I really wanted to walk the Jordan Trail. That's on my list of experiences that I wish for someday. Um, what is something you eat that immediately connects you to a place you've been?
Joanna: Um,
I'm not, I'm much of a foodie. Let's see, what is something I eat that reminds me a place I've been? Um, I, anytime I have a flat bread, I feel like there's a, like a flatbread of, or a tortilla kind of thing of. Of some sort in every culture. And so I feel like whenever I have that, you know, flat bread of some sort often takes me back to the place where I first had it.
Whether, you know, it's when I was traveling a lot in South America or um, in India or wherever. So I would say flatbreads are often the thing that kind of takes me back.
Christine: Thanks. Um, who was a person that inspired or encouraged you to set out to travel the world?
Joanna: Oh, my dad, um, as a little kid, I used to travel with him on his business trips when like three and under would travel for free and he used to take me with them. Um, and so I don't remember these trips, but he tells me stories about them and, um, so yeah, my dad seeded my love of travel for me.
Christine: Uh, if you could take an adventure with one person, fictional or real, alive or past, who would it be?
Joanna: Um,
um, probably my sister, just because she's so tied up at work right now. She's a lot going on. We used to take sister vacations every year, but it's been many, many years since we were able to take one, so I would love to be able to, uh. Tear her away from her work and her life, uh, long enough where there were no repercussions.
And, um, go on a adventure with her.
Christine: Yeah, I really want, I'm vying for a sister vacation. I don't know that my sister and I have ever, I. Traveled alone together, with the exception of a, a funeral service. Um, which outside of the service, we had a great time together traveling, but I would love to have that experience with her. Um, last question.
As you know, soul of Travel is a space for recognizing and celebrating women in the tourism industry. Who is one woman you would love to recognize in this space.
Joanna: Um, okay, so I have to give you a little bit of backstory. Um, this weekend I, at this conference I went to this woman named Alex Allison McAdams. Stood on the stage and she's an, she's been an editor in podcasting and audio radio for like 25 years, has produced amazing shows. And she stood on the stage and said, I'm not used to standing in front of huge crowds because I'm usually behind the scenes.
And so, um, I think we don't do a good enough job across the tourism industry celebrating the people behind the scenes who are our cheerleaders and our supporters. Um, so I actually want to shout out to people if that's okay. Um, the first is Tammy Fairweather, who has always shown up comments, signs up Cheerleads, huge ally, big advocate.
Um, and she's not there for the spotlight, but she has been a friend and a colleague and a major cheerleader of my work for many, many years. Um, and I also want to shout out Ann Becker, who, um, again, incredible advocate for, uh, all the work that I've done. Um, has asked the hard questions sometimes and, and kind of given me the spotlight in conversations when she has so much to share.
And I am so incredibly thankful for all the women in the industry who. Aren't the people that we're interviewing on podcasts who don't make the lists, who aren't nominated for the awards, because quite frankly, without them, the rest of us would not be here. So I just wanna, you know, snaps all around to those people who are behind the scenes because they're the ones that allow the leaders on the people who are speaking and the ones who we all see.
It allows us to show up. So, yeah.
Christine: Thank you so much. And to like, yeah. Of my favorite humans in travel and what a good reminder, um, for me to keep looking outside of the people that. We always see to talk to the people that we don't always see. Um, I really appreciate that and I really appreciate you. Thank you so much for being here and coming back to the podcast to share with us today.
Joanna: Thank you so much for having me again, Christine. It's always a pleasure.
Christine: Thank you.
You can find me on Facebook at Lotus Sojourns on Facebook, or join the Lotus Sojourns Collective, our FB community, or follow me on Instagram either @lotussojourns or @souloftravelpodcast. Stay up to date by joining the Lotus Sojourns mailing list. I look forward to getting to know you and hopefully hearing your story.