Sophie Llenos, Land advocate and Board Secretary of the Porter Voice Collective, joins Christine for this week’s soulful conversation as the first guest in our Trailblazer Series, produced in collaboration with Strictly Jane Austen Tours.

Sophie Llenos, Porter Voice Collective — Words of Wisdom

"Part of being a global citizen isn't just what you learn and reflect on, and how it makes you better as a person, but how are you engaging with the people in the places you visit? How are you reciprocating what you get out of your travel?"
– Sophie Llenos

Sophie Llenos is a settler guest on Anishinaabe Aki, originally from Toledo, Ohio, and currently based near Waawiyatanong (Detroit), Michigan. Growing up accompanying her civil engineer father to construction sites and camping in Hocking Hills, she developed an early interest in how humans shape and are shaped by the Land. An avid hiker and wife, Sophie’s personal and professional life are grounded in a love of Land and community.

Sophie is a PhD candidate in Earth and Environmental Science at Michigan State University, where her collaborative research focuses on ethical engagement in Land-based industries. She holds a B.S. in Geology with a minor in Anthropology and has worked across museums, parks, nonprofits, and higher education. She serves in leadership roles with the Buckeye Trail Association and the Porter Voice Collective and has contributed to international applied research through the American Geophysical Union’s Thriving Earth Exchange. Sophie also holds graduate certificates in Adult Learning, Indigenous Studies, Museum Studies, and Nonprofit Leadership, and is committed to fostering ethical, community-centered approaches to Land stewardship and ensuring future generations have access to and care for the natural world, of which we are all a part.

Expanding Gender Equity in the Outdoors While Confronting the Extractive Nature of Travel

Sophie's path into the travel and tourism world began with a question she was already asking in her academic work: who bears the cost of extraction, and who benefits? Inspired to dive in with a deep interest in backpacking and recreating outdoors, Sophie began to reimagine her relationship with land. Extractive practices, like mining and tourism, impact indigenous peoples disproportionately, and Sophie committed to turn that same lens on outdoor recreation — asking how her own presence on a trail, or in a community, could be less extractive and more relational.

"How am I moving through the landscape?" she reflects. "What's my relationship with the landscape? How am I being extractive as an outdoor recreator? How can I be less extractive?" These aren't rhetorical questions for Sophie — they shape how she travels, how she advocates, and how she thinks about the systems the tourism industry both reflects and reinforces.

Christine shares her own early awakening to these dynamics. Arriving in a remote Thai village to find families who had purchased potato chips they likely couldn't afford, in anticipation of foreign visitors, Christine says, "I was getting more out of that experience perhaps than they were," she says. That discomfort — felt before she had the language to name it — is exactly the kind of moment Sophie hopes more travelers will sit with, and process through, rather than move past.

**Rematriation (not a typo): How One Letter Changes Everything**

Sophie introduces the concept of rematriation — a term she first encountered through Jerry Johndro, a tribal member of the Keweenaw Bay Indian Community, who gently redirected her use of the word "repatriation."

The distinction matters. Repatriation is often seen as a simple return of property. Rematriation, by contrast, "is deeply rooted in Indigenous concepts emphasizing the restoration of relational responsibilities, dignity, and power."

For Sophie, the shift in language reflects something she works to embody across all of her advocacy: recentering women — and particularly indigenous women — as knowledge keepers, holders of tradition, and leaders whose authority has never been absent, only made invisible. "It's a one-letter change," she says, "but it completely changes the meaning of the word."

Sophie shares: “Part of that relationality is understanding yourself and where you come from, the baggage you carry, the history you carry. And if we don't understand who we are and our relationship to land, to people, to more than human relatives, to spirit, we can't do the work in a meaningful and authentic way.”

The Porter Voice Collective and the Himalayan Women Trail Leaders Initiative

The Porter Voice Collective is a nonprofit human rights organization advocating for the dignity, rights, safety, and equity of mountain workers — porters, expedition workers, and trekking staff whose labor makes adventure tourism possible, and whose voices are rarely centered in the industry's storytelling.

Sophie describes the organization's approach as community-led at every level: "It's led by community voices, it's amplifying those voices, and done in partnership with those voices." This isn't an organization that arrives with solutions — it listens for them.

The initiative closest to Sophie's heart is Himalayan Women Trail Leaders, co-founded by Mirna Valdez and Mingmar Dolma Sherpa, the first Nepali woman to through-hike the non-technical Great Himalaya Trail. Women trekking guides make up less than ten percent of Nepal's trekking workforce. The initiative exists to change that — building visibility, economic opportunity, and leadership pathways for women who are already skilled, already leading, and too often unseen.

In February, the Porter Voice Collective held its first in-person leadership training with twenty-one women guides in Nepal. "Every single one of them said they would return for another training," Sophie shares. A second training is planned for September. The momentum is real, and it's being driven by the women themselves.

Global Citizenship Is Reciprocal

Sophie is clear that being a global citizen isn't simply about what travel gives you — the expanded worldview, the challenged assumptions, the deepened empathy. It's about what you give back, and how you stay in relationship with the places and people who shaped you.

"I take a piece back with me, and I give so much of myself to that place," she says. Her trek to Everest Base Camp didn't end when she came home. She stayed involved. She joined the board. She is still there, in the ways that matter.

This reciprocity, she argues, is what separates tourism that extracts from tourism that enriches. Staying at a locally owned property, booking locally led tours, shopping for artisanal goods, asking hotels how they support their communities — these are starting points. But the deeper practice is relational: entering spaces with intention, curiosity, and a genuine willingness to be changed by what you find.

Christine connects this to Robin Wall Kimmerer's Braiding Sweetgrass and its framework of reciprocity with the natural world — the same spirit, she notes, that drew her years ago to a women's artisan co-op in Belize, recommended by a local chef, where she sat, visited, and purchased directly from the women making the work.

Intergenerational Thinking as a Source of Hope

When Christine asks what gives Sophie hope for the future of equitable access to the outdoors, her answer is grounded in something older than the current moment: intergenerational thinking.

"What world am I leaving behind?" she asks — not just for her children or grandchildren, but seven generations forward, in the indigenous tradition she has learned from colleagues and community partners. And extending that lens backward: what sacrifices did those who came before her make for the world she inhabits now?

Community is Sophie’s other source of hope, as she is intentional about surrounding herself with others doing this work: "It's not up to any one of us to have the solution. It's a collective effort."

Christine closes the thought with a sticky note she keeps at her desk: "Every choice your ancestors made, every path they walked led to you."

The conversation is a reminder that equity in the outdoors isn't just about who leads the hike. It's about dismantling the broader systems — colonial, patriarchal, economic — that determine who gets access, whose knowledge is valued, and whose labor makes the experience possible.

Soul of Travel Episode 254 At a Glance

In this conversation, Christine and Sophie Llenos discuss:

· Expanding gender equity in the outdoors and creating systemic change in tourism

· The concept of rematriation and how a single word reframes indigenous women's power and relational responsibilities

· The Porter Voice Collective's mission and the Himalayan Women Trail Leaders initiative in Nepal

· Intergenerational thinking as a source of hope for the future of equitable outdoor leadership

Join Christine and Sophie Llenos now for this soulful conversation.

LOVE these soulful conversations? We rely on listener support to produce our podcast! Make a difference by making a donation on PayPal.

Related UN Sustainable Development Goals

Sustainable Development Goal #5: Achieve gender equality and empower all women and girls.

Sustainable Development Goal #8: Promote sustained, inclusive and sustainable economic growth, full and productive employment and decent work for all.

Sustainable Development Goal #10: Reduce inequality within and among countries.

Sustainable Development Goal #17: Strengthen the means of implementation and revitalize the Global Partnership for Sustainable Development.

Resources & Links Mentioned in the Episode

Visit The Porter Collective to learn more and support workforce equity in mountain tourism.

Special thanks to Strictly Jane Austen Tours for your partnership in the production of our Trailblazer Series!

About the Soul Of Travel Podcast

Soul of Travel honors the passion and dedication of people making a positive impact in the tourism industry. In each episode, you’ll hear the stories of women who are industry professionals, seasoned travelers, and community leaders. Our expert guests represent social impact organizations, adventure-based community organizations, travel photography and videography, and entrepreneurs who know that travel is an opportunity for personal awareness and a vehicle for global change.

Join us to become a more educated and intentional traveler as you learn about new destinations, sustainable and regenerative travel, and community-based tourism. Industry professionals and those curious about a career in travel will also find value and purpose in our conversations.

We are thought leaders, action-takers, and heart-centered change-makers who inspire and create community. Join host Christine Winebrenner Irick for these soulful conversations with our global community of travelers exploring the heart, the mind, and the globe.

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Credits. Christine Winebrenner Irick (Host, creator, editor). GUEST NAME (Guest). Original music by Clark Adams. Editing, production, and content writing by Carly Oduardo.

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Soul of Travel Episode 254 Transcript

Women’s travel, transformational travel, sustainable travel, women leaders in travel, social entrepreneurship

Christine: Welcome to Soul of Travel Podcast. I am your host, Christine, and this is our first episode back in season seven, and also kicking off our series on women trailblazers, which for me, really, I had this idea of all these incredible women I know who are not only doing in- innovative things, but and often in many ways are literally getting people on the trails, getting women on the trails in leadership roles, um, in all aspects of the tourism and outdoors industry.

And as I started thinking about it, um, my guest today is one of the first people that popped into my mind because I feel like you're such a great ex- example of this storytelling picture that I wanted to paint. So I am very excited to be welcoming Sophie Vianos to the podcast. Um, Sophie and I met at WITS about a year ago, I think almost exactly a year ago, and, um, had such a great time kind of getting to know each other through that event.

And being at the Bessie Awards when you won was a really fun experience. So we kind of had this really fun first connection, and I'm, I'm really excited to have you here today to actually be able to tell your story and share it with my listeners. So welcome to the podcast.

Sophie: Thank you so much. All of that was so sweet, and it does feel really nice. It's almost a year later to the date that we last saw each other and met in person, so I'm really excited to be here and have this conversation

Christine: Yeah. Thank you. And for our listeners, just for a, a funny picture that I always have in my mind, because when I met you, you had this, like, beautiful ballgown on, yet, like, every other time I imagine you, it's like, you know, hiking boots, like, literally boots on the ground doing the work that you do. And so I, I have this image that I'm constantly, like, is this juxtaposition in my mind.

So it's always funny to kind of like make those two people the same person in my mind.

Sophie: I confuse myself sometimes. I'm usually the boots on the ground, no makeup, getting my hands dirty. But it is fun to put on a fun dress and get dolled up once in a while

Christine: Yeah. Yeah. Well, as we begin the conversation, Sophie, I'm gonna just turn it over to you to introduce yourself. I know that you have so many different things that you're working in and a part of, and actually that's what I'm so excited about for this conversation, is looking at how all of these things intersect and create, like, such an impactful story in the work that you do.

So I'm gonna let you share with our listeners who you are and what you're up to.

Sophie: That's great. Thank you. Um, well, hi, it's nice to be here. My name is Sophie Lianos. Um, I am actually pretty new to the travel and tourism world. Um, I'm a PhD candidate at Michigan State University. My focus is really in environmental science and stewardship ethics, but I kind of found myself in this tourism world through my interest in love of hiking, of travel, and just really dove into it and embraced it and found that these ethical issues I study in my work, um, a lot of them translate into the travel and tourism world as well.

And so it got me thinking, you know, how am I moving through the world as a hiker, as a traveler? What are the issues? What can I do better? And I found myself in being involved in several organizations. So I'm actually on the board of the Porter Voice Collective and the Buckeye Trail Association, and have just really enjoyed learning in those spaces about travel and tourism and, you know, nonprofits more generally.

Um, on a more personal note, I'm currently living in, well, we have to know the area now known as Detroit, Michigan. Um, I am from Toledo, Ohio, recently moved to Michigan about two years ago, so I'm kind of new to the state still, but I'm a Midwest US girl through and through trying to expand my horizons, um, through traveling both the US and the world.

Christine: Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Um, and one of the things that I wanted to do also, um, as a part of this series is just kind of, uh, acknowledge what, what I saw in you as a trailblazer and kind of set the stage for our conversation. And so what I was really inspired by is the way that your work is really expanding gender equity in the outdoors, and then kind of as you were saying, like really working to create systemic change and looking at, you know, the overlap of outdoor and recreation with the mindset that you already have around, you know, what, what are-- what do maybe some of the extractive notions of, um, mining and hiking and travel and outdoors, like how, how are they similar?

How can we use those to learn from each other? And then I, I really loved, 'cause what I've been thinking a lot about today is, you know, how, how do those paths cross? And because travel puts us out in the world, it crosses paths really with everything. And so I think it's, it's funny how often someone's like, "I'm not sure how I landed in travel when I'm doing X, Y, Z," but yet usually travel is how you get wherever you're doing what you're doing out in the world, even like you said, in the US.

And so I think it finds its way to a lot of people. So I, I'm just really excited to talk about these ideas and concepts and the, the way that you've been exploring them. I love that you're a PhD candidate as well, 'cause I know that that means you are thinking about these things all the time. Like that's, you know, the whole point.

And so like for me, I feel like I love thinking about and talking about just for the sake of thinking about and talking about. Um, that's why a podcast is a great platform. But I'm, I'm really inspi- um, excited and inspired, and I wanted to start just by asking you, where did you first step into travel and the outdoors?

And then how did that really inspire this kind of deeper understanding of land stewardship and community? Like how did, how did you weave into that or what in, what in, what developed that connection for you?

Sophie: Those are such good questions. Um, I would say my involvement in the outdoors really began in my childhood. My dad always took us camping, usually in Southern Ohio, in Hocking Hills for folks who know that area. And it was just such a big part of my childhood and growing up. I really learned to value the outdoor world, being in nature, understanding my relationship to nature Um, and I actually had a period in my later teen years, um, where, you know, you're too cool for the stuff you did as a kid or with your family.

And so I kind of distanced myself from that world a bit. We stopped going on camping trips. I became a little bit more indoorsy. Um, and then majored in geology in college, and actually one of our requirements was doing these field experiences. And the one I chose was backpacking the Grand Canyon to the bottom and back up the South Rim.

I had never been backpacking before that. It was super scary to think about. I had no clue what I was getting myself into. I just knew I had a long prep list and a lot of training to do. And, you know, went in with an open mind, dove right in, and that experience really changed me. It helped me kind of build that relationship I had with the outdoors growing up, back up.

I was excited to spend time outside again, and I got really into hiking and backpacking, and it's just such a big part of my life now. And kind of to address your second question, that also kind of emerged from my studies. Um, in undergrad, my major was geology, my minor was anthropology, and my initial focus was archeology.

I found it really interesting. I loved getting my hands dirty. And then I took a course on how extractive industries, particularly mining, disproportionately impacts indigenous peoples around the globe. And I thought, "What an interesting intersection of geology and anthropology that I hadn't thought about."

Um, I kind of pursued that type of research for my graduate studies. And at first, you know, I was approaching it from a very academic perspective, thinking about, you know, the land's first peoples, um, land stewardship and engagement, ethics around mining. But then I really got to thinking about, you know, this conversation doesn't end with my studies.

Like, how do I embody these values as someone who recreates on, you know, the US stolen lands? And, you know, how am I moving through the landscape? What's my relationship with the landscape? How am I being extractive as an outdoor recreator? How can I be less extractive? How can I build my own relationships to land, with land, with- human and more than human relatives.

Um, and so I actually began getting involved in engagement with tribal nations, but then, you know, also doing my own reflection and kind of rebuilding and reimagining my own relationship to land, trying to follow, you know, the wishes of contemporary tribal nations as much as I can. Um, and so I kind of try to embody that in how I recreate and move through the world.

I'm not perfect, I never will be, but, you know, I try to be better each day. Every time I step foot out my front door on a new trail, um, I try to kind of do better.

Christine: Yeah. Um, there's three things, and we'll see if my brain will allow me to remember all three things as I reflect back what you're saying. The first being just the recognition of imperfection, because I think that when we start having these conversations, that's one of the things that stops it right out the gate, is because people have to learn so much, and you really have to kinda get it wrong before you get it right, and that discomfort holds people back from being in this space of conversation.

And I think even just the acknowledgement of things that have not been done historically co-correct and fair and equal like that just-- it really makes it hard. Like our human and ego part has to get through that before we get into the conversation. So I, I really-- I just wanted to acknowledge that for our listeners.

Like if you ever were curious about this, but maybe the fumbling or awkwardness or the unknown keeps you from diving in deeper to just go ahead and, and do it, because that's how we can learn and create bigger conversations for this work. Um, and then I was thinking about the, um, kind of that perfect intersection that you said, you know, that you just landed there and you're like, "Wow, I never knew this could be a thing."

And I kinda-- I had a similar moment many years ago where my-- some of my passions are gender equity and travel, and I was still kind of learning about this idea of inequity and oppression, and I didn't have that language yet. But, you know, I had someone say, "Have you ever thought about creating a women's travel company?"

And in that moment, you know, this was probably fifteen years ago, that was like, "What?" You know? Like, "No, but why have I not? That's crazy." And then, you know, later it was like, "What if you brought in the social justice element into tourism?" And I was like- Wait, what? I'm like, yes, that is also a brilliant idea.

And I just think that those seemingly obvious or seemingly, like, too far out intersections are usually the perfect spots because like you were drawn there for a reason, like that resonated for a reason. Um, and then the last thing I wanted to share, it just reminded me of this travel experience I had one of the first times I went to South America, and I was with my local female guide, which also was like the best gift because I don't think that happens very often.

We're gonna probably talk about that later. Um, and you know, she was sharing about being indigenous in her community and the things that she faced. And I grew up on a reservation in Montana, and so I was just like, one, and this is a little embarrassing to recognize, but we don't know what we don't know until we know it, you know?

Like, I was like, "Oh, there are indigenous people everywhere." Like, I just hadn't thought. I was so in our bubble of America and what that looked like in the context of my upbringing. And then I was just like, wait, I mean, this is really-- this is probably when I understood what colonialism was. Again, we didn't know.

We weren't saying that at this time 'cause this was like twenty-five years ago or something. And I was like, "Well, why are indigenous communities oppressed in every-" continent on the planet if that's their home? And I just remember like, it was like one of those little internal warrior moments of like, not okay, what am I gonna do about it?

I don't know, nothing except for in this moment, acknowledge it, learn, like kind of put that in my back pocket, understand maybe why it upset me or why it was such a revelation that felt important for me to acknowledge. And then like later on, kind of laying that over top of other experiences, I would see, again, it would be this like injustice and this extractive nature or hearing these wounds and I-- of, of people and of places, and I just was like, "Oh, I can't, I can't sit still now that I've seen and heard this."

And, you know, that first moment was the awkward questioning moment when I actually like had to say, "I didn't realize there's..." Because we learn from our perspective about the Mayan people and the Incan culture, and I just thought like that meant they were accepted as a part of that culture everywhere that we heard the stories the way that we hear them.

And I think storytelling would be something you and I could talk a lot about or, or who's telling stories of places, not storytelling. But anyway, I'm gonna just put a period there. But I wanted to share that, and then maybe you can-- like if that resonates for any experiences you had or like those kind of ahas where you're like, "That should have been so obvious," but yet I didn't see it

Sophie: Yeah. I mean, I think what you shared is really important, like having that humility of, you know, you-- I, I didn't know, and now I do know, and I don't necessarily know the best path forward, but I know I have to do something. I mean, even now that I'm much more embedded in this space than I was even five years ago, there's still so much I'm learning every day.

There's still so much I don't know. There's so much that I never will know and that isn't for me to know. But there are things we can do, and I think and I hope our listeners will take that away from this conversation is, you know, it's okay to not know and have that humility to know that you don't have all the answers and, you know, to approach it with curiosity, with respect, to know we have responsibilities and, you know, we might make missteps.

I make missteps still all the time. I will continue to make missteps. But I think I see, you know, the education, the way we're taught, the way we talk about these things, like you said, we have that language now. I feel like we're moving in a better direction, um, as, you know, a society, but there's still so much work to do.

And I think having these conversations, educating ourselves, educating others, being in community and learning with others is such a great way that, you know, we can start doing the work

Christine: Yeah. Um, I'm-- We're gonna just-- This conversation already has a theme of like, "But Kristen didn't know." But here, when I was researching you, and I was like, "Oh, I love this sentence." It said something in one of your bios about rematriation, and my autocorrect kept wanting to be like, "That's not a word. That's not a word."

And I'm like, "Well, what? I'm-- I have not heard this word. I'm not familiar. What does it mean?" I'm like, "I love it because I feel like it has some matriarch and mother energy. It feels like a beautiful word. I don't know what it is yet, so, you know, hit Google." And then as I read it, I was like, "Oh, well, now I know why I love this word."

But, uh, do you wanna talk about this? This was a project that you were doing and working on, and it just, again, really resonated for me with my background. Once I learned, I was like, "Oh, this feels important and significant."

Sophie: Of course. I actually want to credit my first encounter with this term to Jerry Johndro, who's in the Upper Peninsula, um, a tribal member of the Keweenaw Bay Indian community. He runs Sidewall Hill Farms. I could go on about him. He's fantastic. We were talking about, um, you know, what I referred to as repatriation at the time during a visit I had with him.

And he, you know, kind of quote-unquote, "corrected me" and said, you know, rematriation. And it took me aback a little bit. You know, like, I heard it and I was like, "I think I know what this means," but I'd never heard this before. And, um You know, in our Western culture society, it's very patriarchal and, you know, that's the repatriation.

I mean, even the root of that word is so embedded in our worldview and just the kind of paradigm in society that we have. And rematriation, I mean, it's a one letter change, but it completely changes the meaning of the word, and it really recognizes the power of women, and especially in a lot of indigenous communities.

Women are knowledge keepers. They're knowledge holders. They have power. You know, they, they're highly respected, and they pass down these traditions and this knowledge, and that kind of recognizes that and honors that. And so in my work with, um, NAGPRA, the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act...

For those who don't know, it's legislation in, you know, what is now the United States, that essentially mandates that federally funded institutions, typically museums, um, need to examine their collections for, um, ancestral remains of native communities, sacred objects, funerary objects, and objects of cultural patrimony.

And in the legislation and regulations, it says "repatriate" them. Um, I like to use the language of rematriation. So that's some work I was involved in, um, examining collections at Michigan State University, and I also did some work, um, on the tribal side as well to create a comprehensive database of ancestors and objects that had been returned to tribes.

Um, and then also rematriation of land. I haven't been, you know, directly involved in that work, but it is such a big conversation in the world of land stewardship and, you know, outdoor recreation as a land-based industry. You may have heard of the Land Back movement. Um, you know, rematriation is also such a central piece of that as well.

And I just think it's, it's such a minor kind of change in language, but it completely changes the meaning. And, you know, I'm involved in other gender equity work, which you know about. Um, but especially just, again, reframing in my mind because I have, you know, internalized misogyny. We all do to a degree in this society.

You know, challenging those notions and really perpetuating these ideas of recentering women and gender equity where we can.

Christine: Yeah. Oh. Um, I wanna take a moment and just read this definition that I found because I just-- I really want to, like, make this be something people take away from this conversation because I think, like you said, the energy is so different, and I think... So I'll read it, and then I'll say what I think. Um, repatriation is generally seen as the legal and technical return of property, whereas rematriation is deeply rooted in Indigenous concept emphasizing the restoration and relational responsibilities, dignity, and power.

And to me, like, the difference of those is repatriation is like, "There, I did what I said," or like, "I just-- I moved the thing. I checked the box." And the rematriation feels like I understand why I did what I did, why it's important, and who this impacts. And I, like, have goosebumps over my entire body and kind of wanna cry when I say that.

And I think that comes from, again, like I thought I was a weird traveler. You, I feel like, might be a weird traveler in the way that I am. But I would go to museums, and it would be beautiful, and especially like, um, like in Africa and South America, where, like, the museums were less museumy. Like, they just felt more like collections of objects.

Um, I would feel like crying. I would feel a little uncomfortable. I would very much like... I'm super intuitive, so I would, like, feel the story, and I feel myself like, "Thank you. I'm sorry." Like, as I'm walking through a museum, and it would be something that would happen underneath that I didn't really understand.

But, like, as I read this, I was like, "Oh, that's probably what I was feeling." And again, like, this is stuff we're learning in this current moment, right, is how much this has impacted communities and societies and that when we go and we see this museum exhibit, we're not really fully acknowledging what happened to get that there.

And I had this experience in Egypt many years ago, where they were kind of resetting some of the exhibits in the Egyptian museum, the old one, not the one that they just built, and we were allowed to go into one of the back areas where it's just like chaos, like probably what it looks like if you could see the other side of my office.

And, and walking through that and, like, kind of seeing the disheveled nature of sacred objects, again, I just felt like weeping because I was like, these things, and especially those things have been on this earth for longer than we can imagine. And then I remember there was one mummy that was kind of in there that was waiting to go to his next home.

I sat there for like 30 minutes, and I just, like, sat with this entity and this spirit or this whatever, this energy for me. And it was really emotional, and I feel like that's the essence of this concept is, like, being able to s- to feel that and step into that space and understand this much deeper story of, of, of what things mean and the context that where they came from and, and what it means for them to be here now and how that might have impacted generations of a certain culture.

Sophie: Absolutely. And something else I really just want to emphasize for listeners, you know, in addition to humility, which was a big one, uh, I hit on earlier, is, and you said it, was this idea of relationality. That's everything in this space. It's all about relationships with land, with other people, with more than human beings.

And part of that relationality is understanding yourself and where you come from, the baggage you carry, the history you carry. And if we don't understand who we are and our relationship to land, to people, to more than human relatives, to spirit, we can't do the work in a meaningful and authentic way.

That concept of relationality is so important and, again, so connected to who we are as women, to our feminine energy, and I think that's another big thing that I hope folks will take away from this conversation

Christine: Yeah. I'm like, this is such a

Sophie: Achoo!

Christine: conversation. I just, you know, I'm like, I have chills and I wanna cry. We're back at Soul of Travel. Um, it's so good. Um, well, this leads me so perfectly into something else I was thinking about. Um, and for anyone listening to podcasts, this is how this happens. Like, we've known, known of each other for like a year.

Something will come up, and in the back of my mind, I'm like, "Oh, I wanna ask Sofia about that." Or like, you know, I just have all these little half conversations happening in the ethers. But, you know, I was just noticing when you, you went to Nepal recently, I hope I'm not mistaken. I have, uh, had migraines for like a year, so my brain does this thing where it scrambles information, and it's like, yeah, that's what you saw, and then what I saw.

Um, but I know that, um- since your early days travel and traveling has become such a huge part of who you are and as you said, camping and outdoors and relationships and building these relationships are so important. Um, I'd love to just kind of hear like from that point to now, like what does being a global citizen mean to you?

How important that is that to your work, and how does that kind of shift the context you have for understanding the work that you're doing now?

Sophie: That's such a good question and something I've really been thinking about. You know, coming from the Midwest and, you know, not from a small town, but I'm not from a big city. Um, you know, I see it a lot where we're kind of in our bubbles, and like I mentioned earlier, travel really wasn't a huge part of my life until the last few years.

Um, I went out of the country once to visit family in Germany when I was younger, but aside from that, it was all, you know, largely within the Midwest or at least the US. And I think it's so easy to kind of get trapped in our bubbles. And again, I didn't know what I didn't know. I... My view of the world was shaped by these people who I knew my whole life, by this place I knew my whole life, and I didn't really wander outside of that or push the boundary too much.

Um, it really is when I started traveling more in the last few years that I realized how important travel is. Um, you know, as we all know, there's issues in the industry as there is with every industry. Um, but you know, when it's done thoughtfully and ethically and with care, rooted in relationship like we talked about, I think it's just so important for expanding our view of the world, for learning how to be human, understanding that the way we do it isn't the only way to do it.

Um, it's really expanded, expanded and deepened my cultural humility. I've learned so much. I've combated, you know, that internalized misogyny through travel. I've challenged my own beliefs and biases so much. I think it's made me a better person. But to be a global citizen, it's not just the, how am I benefiting?

How am I being better? It's, it's relational and it's reciprocal. And so I think, you know, part of being a global citizen isn't just what you learn and reflect on and how it makes you better as a person, but how are you engaging with the people in the places you visit? How are you reciprocating what you get out of your travel?

And so I think it's multi-directional. Um, I think it makes us better humans. I certainly have gotten so much out of, you know, engaging with folks from places and cultures outside of my own. And I tend to Just find so much meaning in every place I go to, and so I feel attached to all these places around the world, and I have a hard time just going someplace, coming home, and leaving it there.

Like, I take a piece back with me, and I give so much of myself to that place. Like, you mentioned Nepal. Like, I feel like my sister-in-law's from Nepal. I'm now involved with Himalayan Women Trail Leaders. Um, you know, I did a trek to Chomolungma Sagarmatha, what we know as Everest Base Camp, um, with Mingmar Dolma Sherpa, our kind of co-founder and, you know, the first Himalayan Women Trail Leader in the initiative.

And, you know, I could have gone on this trek and had an awesome time and feel like I helped and made a difference and gone back home and left it there. I couldn't do that. I felt so connected. And so, you know, now I am still involved with the initiative, you know, two years later, um, on the board of the Porter Voice Collective, the organization that runs that initiative.

Um, and that's just one example. But I feel like to be global citizens, we have to be open-minded, we have to be curious, um, and also, you know, strive to be led by community and to be in relationship with community and to reciprocate what we get out of our travel experiences

Christine: Hmm. Yeah. Thank you. I love that word, reciprocity, and, um, it made it-- immediately made me think of Braiding Sweetgrass, which I'm sure you're familiar with. But, um, just I think again, that was something a-as an early traveler that I felt like when I would travel, I would kinda be aching for. And it was, like, noticing the extractive nature of travel and, like, my part in it.

And again, before knowing what this meant, it just was this feeling and, like, feeling like it was giving me so much, and I wasn't sure how to give it back or how, how... Like, really noticing the way that inequity was being fostered by the tourism industry even early on. And, you know, I would often come back and say I loved this, but also it felt really, like, voyeuristic.

And I felt like I was-- my presence there was changing who the people were because they were trying to be something for me. And, like, I, I had a really interesting experience in Thailand hiking and, like, looking back, I'm like, oh my gosh, everything about this whole thing was wrong. And maybe it was one of those case studies that got me where I am, right?

But at one point in it, we, we had hiked into this village. We'd been hiking for three days, and we were using a trail that hadn't been used for many years because an accident that had kind of global They shut down trail, this other trail to all American, Canadian, et cetera, travelers for, for a multitude of reasons, but they said we could still go if we went on this other trail.

And so, you know, I was like twenty-four at the time or something, so I was like, "Sure, great. That I, I still wanna do my hike," not thinking about any of the other things, you know? And anyway, it lands me in this village, and I mean, when, when we're talking about being in the middle of nowhere, we couldn't... Y- you know, we were days past that.

And we arrive, and these people are singing to us and clapping and exciting to see us, excited to see us, and I at the moment was covered in leeches, and I was very excited to see them as well. It was quite an experience. have these giant bags of individual serving potato chips, and my mind was like, one, first, like, "Yes, I've been eating hard-boiled eggs and that have been out for days and bread and sick to my stomach for several days.

I'm so excited to eat these potato chips." And then later it was like, "How on earth did they get these potato chips? Would they be eating these potato chips if I were not there? How much money did it cost for them to get those potato chips that they bought for me, not for them, I'm sure?" And this like, again, this like spiral of questions that to me began to s- just like make me think about what was travel doing here?

What, what was the benefit? What was the harm? What was the conversation? Did we even have a conversation? I do think we tried, but there were just so many things. So again, this was just like kind of like stirring the pot a little for me to begin to like ask enough questions to realize that there was changes that needed to be made, and m- made me realize that something was amiss and that it wasn't equal and that I was getting more out of that experience perhaps than they were.

And so I, I think like this is why travel is important, like what you were saying. You know, you, you wouldn't... If I had never been in that position, I would never ask these questions, and I think this is where A- again, as I was thinking about talking to you, I'm like, "Is tourism the thread or the needle of this like tapestry?"

And I was like, "Oh, that, uh, might catch me. I might sit there for a while." Um, but it... either way, it's important, I think, in this building of like a global citizenship and this deeper understanding. Because if you haven't stood there and, and had these face-to-face interactions and fallen in love and left your heart on this trail that I could never even get back to if I tried, like You can't begin to make the shifts in your life and the greater tapestry with- without that moment.

So that's why I think that, like, travel and all the work you're doing are so interconnected, because if you didn't see these examples, you wouldn't know what to come back and work for. Like, you, you, you have felt that in your DNA, and like you said, you, you, you have loved it, and now, like, it- it's yours. Not like you own it, but it's a part of your story.

You know? Like, you-- it means something to you that you could make any kind of shift that would create more beauty in that experience and less of that feeling of extraction and in- inequity.

Sophie: Absolutely. I, everything you said, I just feel so deeply in my heart. And again, like there's no quote, unquote perfect in this space. There, you know, there have been moments where I do feel like I, as a traveler, am being extractive, and it can be confusing sometimes, like, what do I do? Um, and again, it's being open to learning and reflecting, and there'll be missteps, and it isn't going to be perfect.

It doesn't need to be perfect. But really just entering spaces with that intention is such a good first step

Christine: Yeah. Um, well, I-- we're like diving headlong, and I don't want us to get all the way through this conversation without talking more about BorderVoice Collective, which is one of the reasons why we're here, and the Himalayan Women Trail Leaders Initiative, which was something that, um, when I learned that, um, Marianela De Jesús, who has been on the podcast.

In the show notes, I will share her episode 'cause you definitely want to listen, and I'm sure she'll be on again soon because the work she's done has grown exponentially since the first time I spoke with her. But, um, I wanna hear, you know, if you could share a little bit about what BorderVoice Collective is, why it started, and then, um, specifically the Himalayan Women Trail Leader Initiative and, and the work that you're doing there and why that's so important.

Sophie: Yeah. So the Porter Voice Collective is a nonprofit human rights organization. Um, we really focus on advocating for the dignity, rights, safety, and equity, um, and visibility of mountain workers, including porters, um, expedition workers, and trekking staff. We really use storytelling, media, education, and advocacy as spaces and tools to amplify those voices, which, you know, again, are often invisibilized in the industry.

Um, and a lot of these experiences we have are not possible without these folks in the industry. And so we kind of are advocating for this model of tourism that Marinella De Jesus, um, kind of, you know, came up with as an idea, um, is really amplifying as workforce equity tourism and really ensuring that the travel experiences we have treat the workforce equitably and with dignity, fairly respects their rights.

Um, and so the organization really started with Marinella and the communities that she was working with, um, as part of her travel business. I don't want to speak for her, um, or about her too much, but she had been doing, you know, work trekking in the mountains in various countries and communities and saw these inequities play out on the ground, like just a lack of respect for human dignity and workers' rights by the industry, and, you know, wanted to do something about it.

And all of her work from then until now has really been in partnership with community, led by community. And so all of our initiatives with the Porter Voice Collective continue that kind of approach. It's led by community voices, it's amplifying those voices, and done in partnership with those voices. Um, Himalayan Women Trail Leaders is the initiative that got me involved with the Porter Voice Collective, um, and it's so very near and dear to my heart.

Um, that specifically is an initiative focused on increasing visibility, access, and leadership opportunities for women trekking guides in Nepal. Um, women trekking guides make up less than ten percent of the workforce in, you know, this huge trekking adventure tourism industry in Nepal. And so really Again, amplifying the voices of these women, visibilizing these women, and acknowledging the skills and the knowledge and the voice they already have, and doing what we can to support that.

So this was co-founded by Mirna Valdez and Mingmar Dolma Sherpa. Together, they trekked over one hundred days on the Great Himalaya Trail. Mingmar was the first Nepali woman to, you know, through-hike the non-technical GHT. Um, and you know, from there, so many women saw what Mingmar did and, you know, wanted those same opportunities and to be a community and have that support.

And so we knew it couldn't end with Mingmar. She was the first, she can't be the last. And so we've really been, you know, rallying around this momentum to reach more women guides. And again, they're leading. Um, they're, you know, telling us what they want and what they need, and we're doing what we can to support the women, to elevate their voices, build economic opportunities, challenge gender biases, um, and create pathways for them to lead in the mountains in Nepal.

Christine: Yeah. Um, thank you for explaining and sharing and, um I, I, I mean, there's so many things about that that are so powerful and inspiring, and I think that witnessing the opportunity that you've seen someone else in your community being given when you didn't think that was an opportunity for you is one of those things that is a huge part of, of this podcast.

Because so many stories get shared, and people listen. I should have looked this up, but I didn't know I was gonna say this. I think it's, like, a hundred and twenty countries are places where people have listened to this podcast, and I have heard from some people who have reached out and said, "You know, I heard this story. I had no idea that was something I could do," or, "I had no idea women were doing this in my country," or, "I had no idea people would support these ideas." And I think that's incredibly powerful to be able to take that story and amplify it and, you know, give other women that inspiration that they could say yes to that.

I mean, that is one of the, one of the coolest things when I hear that from other guests, you know, that when they say, "I've done this, and other people in my community now say," like... Like, I think I talked to one of the first women travel, adventure travel company owners in Pakistan, and kind of the same thing, like, n- no women did this.

No one could say yes to this. And now, like, so many women are following in her footsteps, and sim- similar stories in Mongolia, and it's like this landslide of possibility just from one person's story being given visibility or this opportunity being highlighted. So I, I think, um, I think that's why this is so important, right?

Like, if you see yourself... And, and that's why also representation is really important, right? That we want to be having such a diverse group of women breaking down these barriers so that more women who see themselves in them will follow suit, and that ripple will be really, really important, I think, moving forward.

Sophie: Absolutely. Actually, we did our first in-person leadership training with-- we had twenty-one women guides, um, sign up and participate this past February. And I mean, I could just see the impact from being in community and sharing stories. To see Mingmar share her story from her experience on the trail working with Marinelle and just how meaningful that was for all of us in the room, I think it really, you know, is a source of inspiration.

And I think, again, because women are such a small... make up such a small part of the industry, they're so underrepresented, they're invisibilized. Having this space where they can be together and talk and share their stories and encourage and uplift one another to be leaders and to use their voices, it's just so needed.

And actually, all of the women guides, um, you know, in our post-evaluation said they would return for another training, that they really got so much out of this. And so Marinelle, Mingmar, the women guides are actually working on doing a second training, um, in Nepal this September to continue building on that momentum and, you know, again, really uplifting these women and supporting them in their journey.

So it's really exciting to see and like you said, to-- for them to have that community and as part of that last training, we're able to hear live from, you know, other women trekking leaders around the world, um, I think was really special and again, such a powerful source of inspiration on their own journeys as well.

Christine: Yeah. And I, I love the idea of, you know, being able to connect women in these places that are pretty isolated with other women around the world that are also very isolated. Again, to that shared kinship really gives you this sense of, um, possibility and power that, you know, if you don't think you're the only one standing at the base of the mountain here, you know, trying to tackle it, but when you realize there's so many other people doing that, it's unifying, and it's really empowering to kind of create that interconnectedness.

So I, I love it. And I-- when I saw that you guys were doing that training, I just was so excited because it's something that, yeah, that my soul just gets lit up by knowing is even existing in the world from the women that I've met, who I've known would have just-- they would have loved to have had been given that opportunity.

Um, and, um, yeah, it, it just really, really makes me feel a sense of hope that I think we, we definitely need right now. Um, which again, unplanned is a great segue to a question I had for you, is what gives you hope for the future of equitable access to outdoors and equitable, um, kind of equitable leadership opportunities in outdoors?

Sophie: Oh, that's such a good question. Um, you know, I think I find hope a lot of places, and I think I'm glad you're asking about hope because hope is so important, especially in a world where, you know, it feels like it's just increasingly more difficult or that there isn't support for these kinds of things. Um, hope is what really grounds me and keeps me going.

I find it so many places. Um, you know, first and foremost, the communities that we support. I mean, the women in this training in Nepal are just absolutely incredible. They are already amazing leaders. They are using their voices. They just have beautiful, incredible stories and Are just doing such amazing work.

And, you know, I saw it with Mingma, and I've gotten to see it with over twenty other women firsthand in Nepal in this training. Seeing the momentum and the hope and the excitement definitely keeps me going. Um, and you know, that ties to this bigger idea of being in community. It's really doing this work and reflecting on this work and taking this journey with others.

There are other folks doing it, and again, that relationship, like it's so hard to do in isolation. I would argue you can't do it in isolation. Um, it's really building these relationships and connections and learning from and with others in community that gives me hope and keeps me going. It's not up to any one of us to have the solution to change the problems, to fix the problems of the world.

And, you know, we're talking about the travel outdoor industry. It's a collective effort. And so I've been very intentional about trying to find these communities that are doing this work and to surround myself with others who value this and are doing this work. And it feels like a movement that's getting more traction.

It feels like more and more folks care about this or being more intentional when it comes to some of these issues. And I think just cherishing that and building on it is what makes me so hopeful for future change, for change happening right now. And, you know, to, you know, another kind of way I like to think about the world again that I've learned from my colleagues and peers and partners, um, in these spaces is, you know, this idea of intergenerational thinking, and that's very much an indigenous way of thinking that it wasn't a way of thinking that, um, you know, I had or used before, but what world am I leaving for not just my children, my grandchildren?

You know, it's seven generations thinking into the future and, you know, even beyond that, what world am I leaving behind? What impact am I having? And, you know, extending that to the past and my ancestors' story is something that, you know, grounds me and what decisions and sacrifices did they make for the world I live in for my life now, and how can I, you know, extend that and do better for generations into the future?

And so that's kind of how I look at it and how I, you know, keep moving even on the days where, you know, it might be a little bit harder than others.

Christine: Yeah. Thank you so much for, um, sharing that. Um, it reminded me, I have-- I'm the queen of, like, little sticky notes, and I have this one that says, "Every choice your ancestors made, every path they walked led to you." And, like, that's, you know, so similar, right? Like, this idea... And I think, you know, it's something, again, I, I witnessed echoes of in my childhood where I grew up, and that Indigenous belief that I could see in the culture around me, but wasn't a part of my, in my culture. But it was, like, the truest part of me that I wasn't recognizing. So, like, this idea that all of those generations exist kind of at the same moment, right? And all of our paths are very connected to this one moment. And so I think for me, that's, I don't know, it's just such a beautiful way of being able to think about it, and it, it helps to give me, again, like, a lot of hope that it, it, it both, like, puts some pressure on, but takes some pressure off, right?

Like, this is a lineage, and this is a long story, and ours is just this one moment in it, and it's an important moment, but it's, it's not like every moment. It's this legacy that we're leaving. It's this legacy that we're a part of that already exists. And so I think, um, yeah, I think that so much to continue to learn, and I really, again, have hope that this is the moment where we're gonna be able to embody that wisdom a little bit more and use it to navigate everything that we are challenged by right now. Um, we are at the end. We have my rapid fire-ish questions. The ish part. Um, the first one I wanna ask, um, is new to this season, but when you think about the soul of travel, what does that mean to you?

Sophie: Hmm. I think open-mindedness and curiosity

Christine: Um, what are you reading right now?

Sophie: I am reading a book called Rez Life, and I forget the author's name. Um, but I'm in a book club, um, that's all about, you know, uplifting indigenous authors and especially Anishinaabe authors. Um, so that's what I'm reading right now, and I'm learning a heck of a lot of stuff

Christine: Interesting. I might have to look at that as well. Um, what is always in your suitcase or backpack when you travel?

Sophie: Hmm. My water bottle. I am chronically dehydrated. I have a case of kidney stones, and so I've been very intentional about always having a full water bottle with me

Christine: Yeah, and that can be hard sometimes. I do, I'm a water person. I'm, I'm traveling with some girlfriends to a, a three-week, a three-week, three-day weekend concert, and I was like, "Water is my priority." I'm like, "That's

Sophie: Yes.

Christine: very important. Just so you know, I will have so much water with me." Um, what is something you eat that immediately connects you to a place that you've been?

Sophie: Hmm. I'm gonna say momo connects me to Nepal. It's one of my favorite foods, and you just, it's not the same here. You gotta go get it. Gotta go back to Nepal to get it, so it's one of my favorites

Christine: Who was a person that inspired or encouraged you to set out to travel the world?

Sophie: Hmm. I'm gonna say my dad. Um, he's, you know, not necessarily a huge traveler, but he's approaching retirement and getting very excited to dive into that world more himself. But he always taught me the value of being open-minded, being adventurous, learning about other places, and just kind of diving in. So I'd really credit him

Christine: Um, if you could share an adventure with one person, fictional or real, alive or past, who would it be?

Sophie: Uh, this one's pretty easy. I'd say my husband. We've had a lot of amazing adventures together and wanna keep going on adventures together

Christine: Yeah. Um, and then the last question is, Soul of Travel is a place to celebrate women in the tourism industry. Who is someone you admire and would love to recognize in this space?

Sophie: Oh, there's so many. Um, but if I have to narrow it down to one, I would say Mingma Dolma Sherpa, our original Himalayan Women trail leader. Um, my trek with her to Everest Base Camp really just changed me in so many ways and set me on the path that I am. She is so strong and skilled and talented and just really blazing new trails in every sense of the word.

So she's someone I really look up to and want to recognize

Christine: Thank you so much. Um, and thank you so much for this conversation. Um, it was definitely worth the year-long wait. I really am so grateful that this is the, the place that we're, we're beginning this season and this series, and I really appreciate the connection and conversation

Sophie: Yeah. Thank you so much. I 100% agree, worth the wait, and again, appreciate you for having me on. This is such a good conversation

Christine: Okay, perfect. Um, looks like we're still good? You can still hear me and everything? Okay, perfect. Welcome to Soul of Travel Podcast. I am your host, Christine, and this is our first episode back in season seven, and also kicking off our series on women trailblazers, which for me, really, I had this idea of all these incredible women I know who are not only doing in- innovative things, but and often in many ways are literally getting people on the trails, getting women on the trails in leadership roles, um, in all aspects of the tourism and outdoors industry.